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Double Bass Why do we need time signatures?

Jamerman

Jamerman

Apr 8, 2013
126
1
#1
I've studied quite a bit of theory in my musical journey of a mighty 2 years :) But one thing seems to keep bugging me: "Why do we need time signatures?". I know what they are, 4/4 is four crotchets in a bar, 15/16 is 15 semiquavers in a bar, but what does it matter? If I made a simple melody in 4/4 that lasted 4 crotchet beats, would it sound the same in 3/4 or 7/8 if I used ties so the notes would be the same length? I've heard a bunch of guys saying about emphasis, but if you use syncopation, does emphasis still apply? Help me internet please :help:
 
#2
Where music happens in a bar tells you a lot about how it feels and what it's going to be like when you play it. Music without barlines would be like a paragraph without periods.

You could play music that feels four and write it in three, but just try it and you'll answer your own question. Or wait til one of your prog rock guitar friends writes you a part in 17 'cause he thinks he's smart... halfway through the phrase you won't have a clue how the thing's supposed to go.

Syncopation is something fun that works against my ingrained cultural expectations of the meter.
 
#6
Like all music theory, time signatures are man-made guidelines intended to make the writing, performance and communication of music as streamlined and universal as possible.
Time signatures not only specify how many of a certain type of note fit into a bar, they also imply certain rhythm and accent features.
For example 3/4 and 6/8 appear at the outset to be exactly the same thing. Traditionally, however, in a bar of 3/4 which contains 6 quavers the beats will fall as follows:
123456

Whereas a similar bar of 6/8 would be stressed:
123456

I say traditionally because, like many aspects of music theory, these rules are broken almost as often as they are followed.

Here's an example of some music written without a time signature or barlines:
http://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/d/d5/IMSLP00904-Gnossienne_1-a4.pdf

The result is a piece in which the notes and chords tend to all be equally stressed with no obvious hierarchy of beats.
 
#8
We need time signatures to help determine the format. We need to agree on how many beats to the bar before we can agree to how many bars to a form. In simplified terms, most standard forms are a multiple of 4 measures to a phrase. A 12 bar blues, can be reduced to 3 phrases. It's a format we all instinctively recognize. You could count out those same 48 beats in 3/4, but you would get 16 bars and 4 phrases. It would not have the feel of the blues at all.
 
#9
Theory is not a set of rules you cannot break; it's a way of explaining what is happening. The way theory is used to explain beats and rhythm is with time signatures. In a similar way we classify things like animals or plants with artificial methods of separating them. The animals and plants don't know about our systems, and don't care. They do what they do, but it helps us keep track. Same thing with rhythm.
 
#10
mcarp555 said:
Theory is not a set of rules you cannot break; it's a way of explaining what is happening. The way theory is used to explain beats and rhythm is with time signatures. In a similar way we classify things like animals or plants with artificial methods of separating them. The animals and plants don't know about our systems, and don't care. They do what they do, but it helps us keep track. Same thing with rhythm.
Click to expand...

This makes much more sense, thanks :D
 
#11
mcarp555 said:
Theory is not a set of rules you cannot break; it's a way of explaining what is happening. The way theory is used to explain beats and rhythm is with time signatures. In a similar way we classify things like animals or plants with artificial methods of separating them. The animals and plants don't know about our systems, and don't care. They do what they do, but it helps us keep track. Same thing with rhythm.
Click to expand...

Not really, it's more along the lines of what Joycefan (LeopoldBloom) was saying. There's no reason why you would need a time signature to know "beats and rhythms". If you were given the information that showed you the mathematical relationship between the notes (this one is worth half of this one etc.) all you'd have to do is give a tempo marking (qnote = 60bpm) and you're off. Time signatures make it easier to READ and to have ensembles READ TOGETHER. Do this:
Make the REST have the same amount of time as the CLAP -
CLAP CLAP REST CLAP CLAP REST CLAP CLAP REST CLAP CLAP REST

So does it make more sense to read/count that as

ONE TWO three FOUR ONE two THREE FOUR one TWO THREE four

or as
ONE TWO three ONE TWO three ONE TWO three ONE TWO three?

And if you also make your divisions for the pulse of the piece line up with what makes the most sense for the time you've defined, that starts you deciding where to put bars and sections etc.

And once you've got bars and sections labeled, then it's very easy to say "OK, it kind of fell apart there, let's pick it up again at bar 17 of the LARGO" or whatever as opposed to "OK everybody count in 432 bars - violins you should all have an Ab, horns you have...." etc.

It's all about ORGANIZATION for more efficient COMMUNICATION.
 
#17
LeopoldBoom said:
Like all music theory, time signatures are man-made guidelines intended to make the writing, performance and communication of music as streamlined and universal as possible.
Time signatures not only specify how many of a certain type of note fit into a bar, they also imply certain rhythm and accent features.
For example 3/4 and 6/8 appear at the outset to be exactly the same thing. Traditionally, however, in a bar of 3/4 which contains 6 quavers the beats will fall as follows:
123456

Whereas a similar bar of 6/8 would be stressed:
123456

I say traditionally because, like many aspects of music theory, these rules are broken almost as often as they are followed.
Click to expand...

One of my favourite example of this is 'America' from West Side Story. It actually has a double time signature of 3/4 6/8, meaning that bars alternate between the two for rhythmic purposes indicating the down beat. ie

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 | 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 | 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 | 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 |

Think 'I like to be in a-me-ri-ca'

A clear example of how the time signature denotes the rhythm even though the math tells you the bars are the same length.
 
#20
Of course the answer to the question is that we don't need time signatures and Olivier Messiaen's famous chamber work :

"Quartet for the End of Time"

.. has no time signature, which shows the double meaning of the title - composed in WWII in a prisoner of war camp - Messiaen says it was inspired by the book of Revelations and hence the end of time.

But also it shows that it's the end of the need for time signatures. There are moments in the piece where it does feel that time has stopped and that there is no time.
 

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