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Double Bass Why do we need time signatures?

#27
SactoBass said:
George explains that there is no time...
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Here's a good explanation of how time is stopped in QftEoT :

"This revolution in rhythm is best seen in the quartet’s introductory movement, the “Liturgy of Crystal.” For the piano Messiaen superimposed a progression of twenty-nine densely voiced chords (some of which have as many as nine notes) upon a pattern of seventeen rhythmic durations. He added to this a cello part constructed of five harmonics coupled to a pattern of fifteen rhythmic values, arranged in two palindromes: the first a three-note rhythm and the second a twelve-note grouping. Messiaen would later call this kind of thing a “non-retrogradable rhythm.” Messiaen had rediscovered a medieval device called “isorhythm,” in which unequal patterns of chords, pitches, and rhythms revolved around each other—except for medievalists, few musicians knew of the device until the 1950s. By avoiding metrically defined phrases and patterns of stressed and unstressed beats, these isorhythmic “wheels within wheels” destroyed any sense of meter, and thus created a piece of music outside of “time.”

This could have been merely a clever innovation. But Messiaen’s purpose was more than just to be “progressive.” In performance, should those multiple patterns be allowed to cycle through all their possible combinations, the movement would take about two hours. But Messiaen cut it off after only two and a half minutes for a theological purpose. This music functions as does an icon in Orthodoxy. Just as the icon isn’t primarily an aesthetic object to be enjoyed but rather a “window” through which the devout glimpse the holy reality of the saint portrayed, so too the “Liturgy of Crystal” gives the listener a glimpse into the reality of the heavenly Jerusalem, a place beyond “time.” His cycles are metaphors for the life of heaven, and the forty-three bars are a peek into eternity."

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#30
The rite doesn't feel like it has no time though - it feels like it has a primal,primitive sense of time - which is what classical or art music had lost.

It is infused with an incredibly strong and brutal sense of rhythm - it is a dance to the death and many cultures have dances which are odd to our western ears and are difficult to notate satisfactorily - but make perfect sense as dance.
 
#31
So again, the time signature communicates what is happening: in this case, no time signature, no patterns in time. Vaughan Williams and various later composers also used this trick. Stravinski occasionally has half the orchestra in one time, half in another (and sometimes, the bar lines don't match). That's rather tricky to conduct.

Mostly, it's for clarity in notation, so performers don't waste brainpower figuring out what the score means (more than they absolutely have to).
 
#33
Jamerman said:
I've studied quite a bit of theory in my musical journey of a mighty 2 years :) But one thing seems to keep bugging me: "Why do we need time signatures?". I know what they are, 4/4 is four crotchets in a bar, 15/16 is 15 semiquavers in a bar, but what does it matter? If I made a simple melody in 4/4 that lasted 4 crotchet beats, would it sound the same in 3/4 or 7/8 if I used ties so the notes would be the same length? I've heard a bunch of guys saying about emphasis, but if you use syncopation, does emphasis still apply? Help me internet please :help:
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Time signatures aren't required. I've heard music from China that pretty much had no time signature.

I think that the regular 4/4 and 3/4 beats are a convention that made music easier to dance to. Eastern Europe and India have plenty of other time signatures.

In European classical there is a heavy emphasis on the first beat of each measure, but other areas tend not to do that.

The time signature defines what the rhythm section is doing, so the music will sound different even if the melody is the same.

Autumn Leaves was originally in 3/4 but jazzers play it in 4/4. The melody is padded with rests and phrased a bit differently. The overall sound doesn't change much.
 
#38
As with theory in general, time signatures allow musicians to communicate verbally and in writing without having to demonstrate and memorize everything.

When the leader says to change from 6/8 to 3/4 I know how to transition well while the feeling changes. Or 7/4 to 6/8 as happens in pf's money in the guitar solo.

Practical knowledge is helpful :-)

A trained player can sight read a chart and it will sound perfect if it was written perfectly and has correct notation including time and key signatures.
 
#39
Time signatures give universal measure lengths for all parts of a score. If the conductor says go to play from bar 17, then everyone can pick up there. If we didn't have time signatures then would we really have equal bars for everyone? Said bars are determined by the time signature.
 
#40
in my opinion you dont need them, or at least you dont need to pay attention to them all the time. i was in a band once that had all sorts of weird time signatures and when we would go to record, it would sometimes cause problems. thats when we would just set the metronome to 1/4 so instead of beep beep beep boop, it was just beep beep beep beep.

the time signatures were still there but we would ignore them for a second for recording purposes. everything worked, everything still sounded great too so dont even try to tell me that it wouldnt work.
 

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