Why do we still use amps?

[DeepFriedBass]

Imagine practicing at home with IEMs 100% of the time and never having an amp... ewww

 

[Franksvtartover]

Probably just as well newer players are dumping their amps. Knowing how to get a good and balanced house sound using just your backline amps is pretty much a lost art these days.

Either way, for the amount of volume being cranked through most PA systems I’ve been hearing lately, and the obsession with putting the kick and everything else below 250Hz through the subs, it doesn’t really matter what you do most times. Because even though the quality and capabilities of our gear has improved dramatically, the knowledge of how to effectively use it hasn’t always kept pace.

 

[Franksvtartover]

I was at a King's X show, know we are talking Professional band, but the FOH moron had so much kick in the subs, you could not here the Bass and Doug Pinnick has a killer Bass Rig, I agree with you.

 

[Franksvtartover]

A good bit of my love for big lead sled and valve gear is the sheer physicality of it.

I play prog and prog metal, and I like to feel the music - pants flapping, guitarist quelling, double kick drummer pounding BASS.

I like rock and roll with big amps and big sound, and I like having the physical presence of heavy gear making deep bass that I can control (at least on stage, FOH is usually someone else’s issue).

Enough of my life has been virtualized, minimized, pumped full of psychoacoustically trickery and offloaded. I don’t want mini-me stuff for my bass. I want to see it (an amp+cab). My bass is a physical instrument, bass frequencies are physically felt. I can physically dig in when emotion is running high and pound it so it feels goooood. Yes, I can run everything through my Helix LT and need no amp / cab - but when I do part of me feels like another thing in my life has become just zeroes and ones and is compromised in some way - it does it feel like massive, raw physical power and brute force.

I’m 55 and my 3cab dual head Trace rig doesn’t scare me or make me cry. I don’t enjoy carrying it up and down stairs but that’s part of it for me - and my full rig is about 350 pounds (not that I use the whole rig to gig with, usually my AH500X head - 95 pounds with flight case - and a 75 pound Trace 2x15).

I love the sound, the look and the flexibility it gives me on stage. It’s metal, it’s prog, it’s rock n roll.

The reality of my sound pumping through real watts, real cabs and real weight are a HUGE part of the appeal.

Small gear is gee-whiz golly cool (but as I’ve said on other threads), I have yet to see a single post here that read:

“Please help my lead sled/valve head and 6x10 sound like my micro d class head and 12 pound 1x10.”

Not. Once.

Maybe if I played another genre it might not matter. Maybe if I didn’t grow up watching heavy bands build walls of cabs in concert, I might feel differently. Maybe if I could not manage the weight and size I might feel differently. Maybe if I didn’t play with full stack Marshall amps and double kick drummers, I might feel differently.

But I didn’t and I don’t.

 

[Franksvtartover]

You said it, brother, I am 63 years and have an LH Hartke 500 Head and 2x12 and 4x10 stacked carry it my shelf, and love what comes out of it.

 

[Ian Lewis]

I've seen a bunch of interesting bass rigs from touring artists - mostly in the rock / metal scene where the guys usually send some sort a direct signal to the front of house and use amps on stage.

My question is - why do so many guys spend the money on 800+ watt amps and 8x10" cabs plus go trough the effort of transporting it to gigs, when no one except the bass player actually cares. How many bands do you know that actually mic up their cabs and don't just go trough the DI of the amp in the end?

Here's a recent example, where the guy is sending 2 direct signals to the PA. Why not use the same setup + an IR loader to send the signal directly.


P.s. I don't use an amp, and my band uses an in-ear monitoring system.

My bands don't have sound engineers or put the rhythm section through the pa.

 

[Raimonds]

The aspect of no bass in the front of the stage got me thinking. When I'll get my hands on the Omni cab I'll send the thru output to the amp, just for some stage volume. The versatility makes me want that pedal even more

 

[Hundred proof]

Yeah well, truth be known most folks in reality play small clubs and venues, most of the ones I talk to doing this, will tell you anything over a small self contained PA head and a couple of speakers on a pole is massive overkill. Your amps carry the room.

Not saying that at the next level modern advances in sound tech doesn’t have its place.

Amp less as much as it’s a matter of control, it’s a matter of scale.

The argument for ampless.

A sound person has the ability to scale the overall volume up or down to fit the venue. By doing so you give up a lot if not all control to one person. Proponents point to amp modeling and the associated technology to replicate the sound of traditional amps and percussion to the audience sound person types also will tell you it makes their job easier.

 

[FaithNoMan]

Recently played a few of my pedals direct again, just for fun. I even used IR cabsims and different IR "rooms". Made it sound a lot better.

It still pales next to playing said pedals through my Mesa Bass 400(and mic'ing it up). Experimentation is fun - and just to think that I was so stubborn when my buddy suggested me mic'ing my amp a few years back. "I prefer my cabinet/mic sounds direct, with speakersim, man. Less variables to go wrong"

 

[dpbass66]

...

There’s no PA that is designed to capture precise EQ needs of bass...? Been to any concerts in a 20,000+ set arena? All of the bass you’re hearing is from the FOH. Any amp on that stage is for personal monitoring and/or product endorsements.

I dont think a comment about auditorium or arena size gigs is pertinent to the OP. As a bass player, are you ever out in the middle of the arena hearing yourself? No. So what is your comment addressing? Not sure i get that.

 

[EdO.]

Imagine practicing at home with IEMs 100% of the time and never having an amp... ewww

Do it all the time. Love the control and consistency of tone. If you don't get it you don't get it.

Yeah well, truth be known most folks in reality play small clubs and venues, most of the ones I talk to doing this, will tell you anything over a small self contained PA head and a couple of speakers on a pole is massive overkill. Your amps carry the room.

Not saying that at the next level modern advances in sound tech doesn’t have its place.

Amp less as much as it’s a matter of control, it’s a matter of scale.

The argument for ampless.

A sound person has the ability to scale the overall volume up or down to fit the venue. By doing so you give up a lot if not all control to one person. Proponents point to amp modeling and the associated technology to replicate the sound of traditional amps and percussion to the audience sound person types also will tell you it makes their job easier.

You kinda contradicted your own argument. Stage amps carry the room but "a sound person has the ability to scale the overall volume to fit the venue" without everyone running direct. The sound person doesn't have that control, especially in a small venue, it you're "carrying the room" with your stage amps. They're at the mercy of whatever volume level is being pumped from the stage amps. If you're offensively loud from the stage the sound person has little control of total volume and can't "scale to fit the venue ". And trust me, way too many bands get offensively loud in small venues to the point you can hardly tell what they're playing.

Personally I prefer someone out front controlling things, much easier to get a quality overall sound without blowing the doors out of the place. In a perfect world where everyone controlled their volume and knew how to balance everything from the stage then yeah, stage amps sound good. The hard cold reality is that damn few are capable of that level of discipline. I prefer to have a KNOWN and repeatable level of sound quality out front so FOR ME the tradeoffs of running direct with IEM's and having someone controlling it all out front are well worth it. But of course as always YMMV.

 

[dpbass66]

Why do we still use basses? Keyboards don't need setup, don't need to be worn on a strap, & interface better with a PA channel.

If you mean the keyboard player in the band should also cover bass duties, then there are lots of reasons why that shouldnt happen. If you mean that bass players should play “keyboard bass” instead of bass guitar, then you may have a point. However, keyboard (synths) could replace any instrument at least as well as the original instrument (except vocals). At what point is performance about perfect sound vs the collective sound and abilities of people playing the basic instruments of modern music.
I wouldnt be interested in seeing one (or a few) persons play a Mozart symphony on some synths... i want to hear the orchestra.

 

[DeepFriedBass]

In reference to never using an amp for practice and only using IEMs at home:

Do it all the time. Love the control and consistency of tone. If you don't get it you don't get it.

See, theres thing thing called 'true bass'. Its something you feel across the entire body, and gives music its impact. No headphone in the world can rumble your body. It's the most important element in music and this physical impact is the reason that live music exists at all.

I know what IEMs do, I get it. I also know what they dont do

 

[EdO.]

In reference to never using an amp for practice and only using IEMs at home:



See, theres thing thing called 'true bass'. Its something you feel across the entire body, and gives music its impact. No headphone in the world can rumble your body. It's the most important element in music and this physical impact is the reason that live music exists at all.

I know what IEMs do, I get it. I also know what they dont do, got it?

As stated, YMMV. The audience gets plenty of bass impact from the PA. All I want/need is to hear myself clearly. And try to save what hearing I have left from all those years in front of loud stage amps getting that "physical impact that rumbles the body ". Again, YMMV. Different strokes, personal preference, no right or wrong judgement intended.

 

[Hundred proof]

Do it all the time. Love the control and consistency of tone. If you don't get it you don't get it.

You kinda contradicted your own argument. Stage amps carry the room but "a sound person has the ability to scale the overall volume to fit the venue" without everyone running direct. The sound person doesn't have that control, especially in a small venue, it you're "carrying the room" with your stage amps. They're at the mercy of whatever volume level is being pumped from the stage amps. If you're offensively loud from the stage the sound person has little control of total volume and can't "scale to fit the venue ". And trust me, way too many bands get offensively loud in small venues to the point you can hardly tell what they're playing.

Personally I prefer someone out front controlling things, much easier to get a quality overall sound without blowing the doors out of the place. In a perfect world where everyone controlled their volume and knew how to balance everything from the stage then yeah, stage amps sound good. The hard cold reality is that damn few are capable of that level of discipline. I prefer to have a KNOWN and repeatable level of sound quality out front so FOR ME the tradeoffs of running direct with IEM's and having someone controlling it all out front are well worth it. But of course as always YMMV.

Many venues are not “music” venues, they’re sports bar/pubs that have music on the weekend.

There is no sound person and you scale your volume to the needs/wants of the venue staff, it’s admittedly old school and becoming a lost art. The guys I work with work constantly, precisely because they understand this and know how to do it. As I said I have no problem with churches and dedicated music venues using new-tech, it’s at a different level than most weekend warriors.

 

[David Lakin]

...


I dont think a comment about auditorium or arena size gigs is pertinent to the OP. As a bass player, are you ever out in the middle of the arena hearing yourself? No. So what is your comment addressing? Not sure i get that.

The question was “Why do we still use amps?” Like I said amps on stage are there for personal monitoring. With the advancements in PA systems and IEMS there really isn’t any need for those 200 pound behemoths anymore. It’s all personal preference.

 

[dpbass66]

The question was “Why do we still use amps?” Like I said amps on stage are there for personal monitoring. With the advancements in PA systems and IEMS there really isn’t any need for those 200 pound behemoths anymore. It’s all personal preference.

In venues up to large clubs, there is no PA that is replicating the bass sound one can get from amps and speakers designed for bass. Ive played venues of all sizes with IEMs, with stage monitoring, with and without my bass amp/speakers, and ill take my bass system onstage with me all day long over IEM or PA stage monitoring. If my sound is left to the devices of a sound guy he isnt EQing my bass for a sound that I want (or even very good)... not even close. But like you said, its all personal preference.

 

[Raimonds]

Here's a different perspective from my experience about amps on stage for personal monitoring. I've done plenty of gigs in the role of the bass + vocals of a band and had the chance to do an accidental AB test - same venue, same band, same amp (Hartke 2500, 4x10 cab), but DIFFERENT sound guys. ～3m (10 feet) between me and the amp. Amp located behing my back.

Gig 1. Young sound guy. Amp turned to 3/10 bass turned up in my on stage monitor, perfect sound.

Gig 2. Older sound guy, different approach. Amp turned to 5/10, still can't hear a thing. Sound guy says to increase the volume of the amp, because he can't put more bass in the monitors. I argued that there's no point in making more noise on the stage. I asked for him to eq out low frequencies and just turn up the bass volume in the monitors. Turned the amp to 8, didn't understand a thing of my playing in that gig.

Personally, I care more about the overall mix and what the audience hears than my own tone on stage. In a small venue you have to keep the stage volume down in order for the sound guy to be able to do his job.

There have been plenty of times where the bass amp has been there more for the overall impact of sound than as a tool for me to clearly understand my articulation and precision.

 

[AlvarHanso]

Most of the venues I play, we provide the PA, and it's usually just vocals. I bring a GK MB115 at 200W for my effected signal, and an Acoustic B100mkII 100W for my clean. When we're lucky enough to have FOH, I send a DI from the GK and use the DI on my EHX Battalion for the clean, though the B100 also has an XLR out. It's not 8x10, but 2x15, and I gotta have it. And at the gigs with FOH, the monitors were crap, and I couldn't hear much other than drums until I turned my amps up. I don't normally have them blasting, but there's nothing I hate more than playing and not being able to hear myself.

One gig several years ago at a winery, one of my previous bands was doing a set amongst several other bands for a benefit, and luckily for everyone, I showed up with my rig, and my 2 12" passive monitors, and our guitarist had brought a small PA and 2 passive monitors that ended up serving as the PA for the entire event, as the venue didn't think to provide one and the headlining band thought it would be provided. Also, they got really lucky that was one of the few times I showed up extra early, because I got a bit lost trying to find the place, no signal on my phone, so no GPS, and finally stumbled upon it whereupon I learned about the PA or lack thereof. Turned out to be a fun show.

 

[PhatBottomBass1]

A good bit of my love for big lead sled and valve gear is the sheer physicality of it.

I play prog and prog metal, and I like to feel the music - pants flapping, guitarist quelling, double kick drummer pounding BASS.

I like rock and roll with big amps and big sound, and I like having the physical presence of heavy gear making deep bass that I can control (at least on stage, FOH is usually someone else’s issue).

Enough of my life has been virtualized, minimized, pumped full of psychoacoustically trickery and offloaded. I don’t want mini-me stuff for my bass. I want to see it (an amp+cab). My bass is a physical instrument, bass frequencies are physically felt. I can physically dig in when emotion is running high and pound it so it feels goooood. Yes, I can run everything through my Helix LT and need no amp / cab - but when I do part of me feels like another thing in my life has become just zeroes and ones and is compromised in some way - it does it feel like massive, raw physical power and brute force.

I’m 55 and my 3cab dual head Trace rig doesn’t scare me or make me cry. I don’t enjoy carrying it up and down stairs but that’s part of it for me - and my full rig is about 350 pounds (not that I use the whole rig to gig with, usually my AH500X head - 95 pounds with flight case - and a 75 pound Trace 2x15).

I love the sound, the look and the flexibility it gives me on stage. It’s metal, it’s prog, it’s rock n roll.

The reality of my sound pumping through real watts, real cabs and real weight are a HUGE part of the appeal.

Small gear is gee-whiz golly cool (but as I’ve said on other threads), I have yet to see a single post here that read:

“Please help my lead sled/valve head and 6x10 sound like my micro d class head and 12 pound 1x10.”

Not. Once.

Maybe if I played another genre it might not matter. Maybe if I didn’t grow up watching heavy bands build walls of cabs in concert, I might feel differently. Maybe if I could not manage the weight and size I might feel differently. Maybe if I didn’t play with full stack Marshall amps and double kick drummers, I might feel differently.

But I didn’t and I don’t.

ROADIES LOVE AMPEG!!

The "less is more" philosophy is just a symptom of the decomposition of rock music from a generation that wants to bring "Alexa" in as their new hipster lead vocalist!

In my rockin' roll world flexibility is key!