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why does the room change the sound?

#21
I can never really tell what I sound like in the room from onstage. I went to wireless and I can hop off stage during sound check to set my volume and tone. I also think we sometimes get distracted trying to find the perfect tone. I can almost always get a very good and very acceptable tone in a room, perfect no, but good.

Unlike some of the posters I don't usually play situations with soundmen and PA support, though with a DI on my backline 600 given the info from this thread I'll probably let the soundman go through that should the situation arise.

I also got a rare treat Sunday. I was at a jam, a friend didn't bring a bass and asked if he could use mine. I got to hear what my bass sounds like from the audience. For a relatively inexpensive bass it sounds very good.
 
#22
butchblack said:
I can never really tell what I sound like in the room from onstage. I went to wireless and I can hop off stage during sound check to set my volume and tone. I also think we sometimes get distracted trying to find the perfect tone. I can almost always get a very good and very acceptable tone in a room, perfect no, but good.

Unlike some of the posters I don't usually play situations with soundmen and PA support, though with a DI on my backline 600 given the info from this thread I'll probably let the soundman go through that should the situation arise.

I also got a rare treat Sunday. I was at a jam, a friend didn't bring a bass and asked if he could use mine. I got to hear what my bass sounds like from the audience. For a relatively inexpensive bass it sounds very good.
Click to expand...

It still doesn't really sound like what you sound like playing it. Just close.:bassist:
 
#23
Ya, we all kind of nitpick ourselves to death sometimes, but I've come to the conclusion that we get paid to micromanage our tone and we should do the best job of conveying it we can given our budgets and requirements. Don't have to spend a fortune, don't have to buy the best, don't even have to ask people on Talkbass about it...95% of our tone comes from us...but you do have to get something, so might as well be satisfied with it.

But one thing I can't do is the no-amp thing. I know a lot of people love it, but I've got to have an amp, and these days the cab rig has to be pretty sizable, too. Not for volume, but for the tone I like. I never ask for help moving my rig, so nobody complains about the size. And I play so quietly that I never have a problem blending in with the PA. So I figure as long as I don't mind moving it, nobody should care if I play it ;)
 
#24
I think one of the biggest obstacles to overcome is playing your best when your stage sounds is terrible due to bad room acoustics. The other side of the coin is that the room acoustics can change dramitcally from sound check (empty club) to a packed house full of humans that absorb the standing waves from boucing off the walls.

+1 to lower stage volumes, no extreme EQ, and getting feedback from either your soundman or someone in the crowd you trust.

We have all dealt with it especialy in the small rooms with solid, parallel walls and hollow, thin stages with enclosed sides.
 
#25
The more uniform the cab's radiation pattern across the spectrum of your bass guitar, the more consistent the sound will be from one room to another, and from one location to another within the room. You'll still have room interaction issues of course, but at least your cab won't be making things worse than they already are.
 
#27
Bjazzman said:
I can sound so good in practice with everyone going at normal volume but as soon as I move my gear to the gig I fight the room.

no matter how much I eq it will never be the same

why is that and what can I do about that?
Click to expand...

What specifically sounds bad when playing live? Volume, tone, or tone because of volume?

Playing live is it at the same venue? What kind of material does the stage have?

Is your amp your sound to the audience? I noticed you said you typically don't have a sound guy, PA, or monitors are least likely thing to have.

Where do you place your amp on stage? Can you elevate it? (less than ideal but you hear more, feel less without the ground coupling)

What size speakers do you have?
 
#28
Originally Posted by Bjazzman

I can sound so good in practice with everyone going at normal volume but as soon as I move my gear to the gig I fight the room.

no matter how much I eq it will never be the same

why is that and what can I do about that?
Click to expand...

Room modes... blow across a coke bottle and it makes a nice whistling sound - blow across a different bottle and it sounds different - blow all you like its going to be different. This will always happen.

A FAQ on tuning a room here - if you want to learn more about what you are confronting.

Invalid Link Removed

Changing the room aint practical so you have to learn to tweak your rigs EQ to best deal with the circumstances - or lose the rig and go the PA/monitor route and it becomes the SR crew's problem.
 
#29
Wow.

Room mode for me is finding the suck frequency. I learned this trick from a very good recording engineer - crank the mids up 10dB. Sweep the band and find the one freq that makes you cringe. Cut that by 2 - 3 dB. Add or cut lows and highs to fit the mix. Then you're done.

I started doing the same thing. It works. I can get a very workable tone these days using just about anything with one stage of parametric mids.

Every room is a bit different. Wood stages or floors introduce their own sets of complications. Once I adopted the "kill the suck zone" approach, things got easy.
 
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#30
You can spend tons of money on basses, amps, speakers, strings -- looking for great tone -- but the room is the unpredictable variable that changes everything. A few years ago I'd send a signal into the room via an SWR sm 400s and direct to the soundman from the built-in di. The great thing about that head was you could notch out any unpleasant frequencies -- usually boomy lows and low mids. Nowadays I leave the FOH sound to the soundman. I place a MarkBass combo in front of me, tilted back like a wedge monitor, and send a signal from the di to the soundman. Problem solved. Frankly, never sounded better ;-)
 
#32
Call me crazy but I usually find that if I can get it to sound right on stage it sounds right "out there". Everything flat & scoop full works for me.

Usually.

Unless it's outside or in a barn of some sort it's pretty simple. I think sometimes we get too cerebral and carried away with EQ.
 
#34
Wow, so many factors to consider on this subject that I won't even bother to list them or try to even understand them. But, I'll throw in my two cents, anyway!

After playing in a wedding/party band for the better part of 12 years, I dscovered that certain rigs sounded " better " to me in certain rooms than others did, irregardless of other factors such as size of the crowd, size of the room, what kind of wallpaper it had, etc. We basically played the same 6 or 7 banquet halls every week, so I narrowed it down to 3 basic rigs, and let the sound guy worry about foh. I was lucky enough to be able to have 3 rigs at the time, but, if you play the same rooms over and over, week after week, it should'nt take you long to figure out what sounds good on stage after awhile.
 
#35
JimmyM said:
Ya, we all kind of nitpick ourselves to death sometimes, but I've come to the conclusion that we get paid to micromanage our tone and we should do the best job of conveying it we can given our budgets and requirements. Don't have to spend a fortune, don't have to buy the best, don't even have to ask people on Talkbass about it...95% of our tone comes from us...but you do have to get something, so might as well be satisfied with it.

But one thing I can't do is the no-amp thing. I know a lot of people love it, but I've got to have an amp, and these days the cab rig has to be pretty sizable, too. Not for volume, but for the tone I like. I never ask for help moving my rig, so nobody complains about the size. And I play so quietly that I never have a problem blending in with the PA. So I figure as long as I don't mind moving it, nobody should care if I play it ;)
Click to expand...

I can totally relate to this.. it took me about 10 gigs to get used to not feeling a chest thump...

In a way, my setup is spoiled - if we need a thump tone, have a bass that does it naked.. need a hifi tone.. one that does this.


Not sure how many folks here are playing casinos - noticing they're starting the no stage amp trends... we have one in our region - figured between this and church sessions, should at least get used to it.
 
#36
Interceptor said:
Wow.

Room mode for me is finding the suck frequency. I learned this trick from a very good recording engineer - crank the mids up 10dB. Sweep the band and find the one freq that makes you cringe. Cut that by 2 - 3 dB. Add or cut lows and highs to fit the mix. Then you're done.
Click to expand...

This is a good approach if you're having trouble finding the problem frequency, assuming your amp has a mid sweep. Graphics will help too but the more bands, the better. You'll sometimes end up scooping out to much of what sounds good in order to eliminate the bad as the freq. centers are often too far apart on say a 5-band.
 
#38
Interceptor said:
Wow.

Room mode for me is finding the suck frequency. I learned this trick from a very good recording engineer - crank the mids up 10dB. Sweep the band and find the one freq that makes you cringe. Cut that by 2 - 3 dB. Add or cut lows and highs to fit the mix. Then you're done.

I started doing the same thing. It works. I can get a very workable tone these days using just about anything with one stage of parametric mids.

Every room is a bit different. Wood stages or floors introduce their own sets of complications. Once I adopted the "kill the suck zone" approach, things got easy.
Click to expand...


I must be missing something - can you please explain again how you EQ.. If I'm running sound I cheat and use a TOA spectrum analyzer.

Interested as my stadium rig is digital with a mutli band eq and dialable crossover sweep.
 
#39
DukeLeJeune said:
The more uniform the cab's radiation pattern across the spectrum of your bass guitar, the more consistent the sound will be from one room to another, and from one location to another within the room. You'll still have room interaction issues of course, but at least your cab won't be making things worse than they already are.
Click to expand...

Yep. Why I'm big on better off-axis performance - even power response.
 
#40
Everyones responses to this thread have been very accurate. Being a soundman/bass player/sax player I have spent alot of years mixing really crappy rooms and I will stand behind what the rest here have said:
A. The entire band must keep the volume under control. Better to underplay than overpower a room.
B. Get a good wireless
C. All your amp is , is a monitor for you to hear onstage.
D. DI is what it is all about.
E. If you play on large wooden , hollow stages, learn what an Auralex Gramma pad is.
 

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