Why does this chord progression sound good even though it's using notes not in the correct key?

[SteveCS]

Thank you! As my theory is spotty at best, it helps to have a good explanation of how and why I was wrong with the terminology. I actually do very much appreciate this.

You're welcome. It is not an easy subject. Here are a few additional points to take in...

Firstly, chord naming is a rather nebulous in it's conventions. Although terms such as major, minor and so on are used to describe chords, they really only apply directly to intervals. The use of major, minor, diminshed, etc. in chord naming originates from the qualities of the intervals in the chord.

Another point is that the terms diminished, minor, perfect, major and augmented, whilst they appear to be relative or comparative terms, they actually describe the 'quality' of the interval in absolute terms.

Finally, don't forget that interval classes (2nd, 3rd, etc) are reckoned by letter name and not semi-tone count, and that the same number of semi-tones, or half-steps, can appear in different interval classes - just the note letter name changes.

So, from the table, a minor 3rd and augmented 2nd are both 3 semi-tones. Check out the harmonic minor scale on your piano to see what I mean. The Augmented 2nds (between 6th and 7th degrees) are marked here with the slur, first in Am then, just for fun, in G#m...

YMMV.

 

[mambo4]

In my brain, any number in a chord symbol assumes a default of the natural position of the interval in a major scale . (with 9,11,13 being the 2,4,6 an octave up)
...except that rascally 7

The dominant seventh chord "C7" notation is certainly an oddball. In every other case a number in a chord symbol - 9, 11, 13 (with no added modifier) indicates the unmodified interval above the chord root. But somehow the "7" has become the default for a minor 7th interval, and a major 7th somehow must be explicitly notated as such.

This probably has to do with the fact that Dominant 7th chord are far more common in Jazz charts, so more efficient to save the extra modifiers for the rarer cases.

Not a surprise that someone coming at this starting with Jazz chord chart symbols might assume that a minor 7th is a the default 7th, and a major 7th is "raised"

the other rascally thing about the minor 7 interval is that it is assumed present in a 9,11, or 13 chord. So if you see "C9" there is an assumed invisible minor 7th interval tucked in there. again, probably because they were more common chords than C add 9, (no seventh) or Cmaj9 (major 7th) for example.

 

[Mushroo]

@DuckSoup do you see the can of worms you've opened? All this mansplaining underscores the importance of a "curriculum." If you are learning in a structured way then you can simply say things like, "My teacher* says C Major = C E G, and I trust my teacher. Moving on; next lesson!" You will progress more calmly and at a quicker rate, if you have a trusted authority to help you separate the facts from the fiction. You will have faith that these lessons are leading somewhere, there is a purpose to the rote memorization, and your teacher is going to help you put all the pieces together in the end. You won't have that cognitive dissonance of, "Wait, maybe C Major isn't C E G. Maybe it has a Bb in it? I'm so confused!" You're getting a good lesson here, in the pitfalls of unstructured learning by committee.

* In these times of quarantine, "teacher" might just mean, author of a music theory textbook or creator of YouTube instructional videos.

 

[Groove Master]

May be you're in G Major and not C Major. All those chords fit the G Major key.

 

[Snarf]

I was having trouble finding how to ask this question, but here's something I'm having trouble wrapping my head around. I'm no music theory expert, so I'm just trying to learn here.

I like to noodle with chords and just explore sounds. One of the things I like to do is descend down from the I, to the vii, then vi, then V. But there's something off about that V chord that I need some help with.

So let's say I'm playing in the key of C, and I start with a C major chord (C, E, B) Sounds great.

Then I go to a B chord (B, D, A)...smooth, I like it so far

Then the A chord (A, C, G) great I love it

Then here's where it gets wonky...I drop to that 5 chord (G, B, F<<<)

That F...sounds completely out of place. If I play an F# instead, it sounds like it fits the chord progression and feels right...But that doesn't make sense to me, it's a note not in key, and on top of that the 5th chord should be a augmented 7th right?

I know that music theory is simply just theory, but it seems like descending down like that should feel nice and smooth, but that 5th chord sounds super tense and out of key.

Didn't read too many posts so somebody has probably already told you: This progression is 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 in G, so you're not in C.

 

[SteveCS]

...mansplaining...

I really hope you are not classifying all posts this way...

 

[Wasnex]

In my brain, any number in a chord symbol assumes a default of the natural position of the interval in a major scale . (with 9,11,13 being the 2,4,6 an octave up)
...except that rascally 7

The dominant seventh chord "C7" notation is certainly an oddball. In every other case a number in a chord symbol - 9, 11, 13 (with no added modifier) indicates the unmodified interval above the chord root. But somehow the "7" has become the default for a minor 7th interval, and a major 7th somehow must be explicitly notated as such.

This probably has to do with the fact that Dominant 7th chord are far more common in Jazz charts, so more efficient to save the extra modifiers for the rarer cases.

Not a surprise that someone coming at this starting with Jazz chord chart symbols might assume that a minor 7th is a the default 7th, and a major 7th is "raised"

the other rascally thing about the minor 7 interval is that it is assumed present in a 9,11, or 13 chord. So if you see "C9" there is an assumed invisible minor 7th interval tucked in there. again, probably because they were more common chords than C add 9, (no seventh) or Cmaj9 (major 7th) for example.

I took a few classical theory courses before I started really learning to read jazz chord notation. I picked up on the various notations for the 7 chords fairly quickly. I believe they all use the same convention but there is quite a bit of variation. For example you can use symbols with dashes standing for minor and triangles standing for major.

I think the notation for dominant chords makes sense because it's to messy and unnecessary to write out the full explanation since it's so common in jazz.

One way the minor major chord can be written is Cm(Maj7). You could write the dominant chord in a similar way C Maj(min7) but it's a lot easier to write, and to read C7. And as you say, since dominant chords are very common in jazz I think the notation is fairly sensible. On rare occasions I have seen C Dom7

When I was first learning to read chord notation, the 6 chords are the ones that I found tricky, as they were totally different from the 6 chord I was taught in my theory classes.

G Maj6 = GBDE Often G Maj6 is contracted to G6. This chord may function harmonically as E min7 (EGBD) in first inversion.

G min6 = GBbDE This chord may function harmonically as E half dim7 (EGBbD) in first inversion Some prefer to notate E half diminished as E m7b5.

I think it's easier and faster to write the circle with a slash, but it doesn't really matter than much to me.

One argument against using the shorthand symbols like the triangle, slash, and circle is they can be hard to read in low light, especially after the music has been copied many times.

 

[SteveCS]

I think the real background of the notation stems from the fact that the dominant 7th chord was really the only 7th chord used in the analysis of classical (functional) harmony - the shorthand 'V7', 'V7b' etc were probably the only 7th chords discussed as having a purpose, and thus became synonymous with the Dominant 7th chord. I don't really recall any classical harmony books where the other 7th chords, either in quality (m or M) or by degree (e.g. ii7 or I^7) are discussed to any great depth, it at all. For centuries, all other notes beyond the basic triads where just auxilliaries and considered inconsequential.

YMMV.

 

[LBS-bass]

I really hope you are not classifying all posts this way...

I didn't take it that way, if that helps. I honestly do value the things I learn from other musicians, both here and elsewhere; I've been picking their brains since I was very young. No need to stop now.

 

[MixBass]

Seeing as this thread has delved into the minutiae end of the pool I’m going to air a complaint about proper terminology.
I think intervals such as 6th or 7th are easier to comprehend as raised or lowered rather than Maj or min. To a beginner for ex. C7 is easily confused as CMaj7 since both are Maj chords. I don’t like calling it a min7 if it’s in a Maj chord. I think it’s easier to think of as a lower 7th or raised 7th. Likewise Dorian mode features a “raised” 6th (whole step above perf 5th) vs the “lowered” 6th (half step) of Aeolean, rather than Maj or min 6th. One could still employ Aug or dim in the usual context. I know my terminology is technically incorrect but I also believe it takes less explanation to achieve the desired result.

 

[Papageno]

Hey guys, here is a reading suggestion: The Berklee book of harmony.

 

[Wasnex]

Seeing as this thread has delved into the minutiae end of the pool I’m going to air a complaint about proper terminology.
I think intervals such as 6th or 7th are easier to comprehend as raised or lowered rather than Maj or min. To a beginner for ex. C7 is easily confused as CMaj7 since both are Maj chords. I don’t like calling it a min7 if it’s in a Maj chord. I think it’s easier to think of as a lower 7th or raised 7th. Likewise Dorian mode features a “raised” 6th (whole step above perf 5th) vs the “lowered” 6th (half step) of Aeolean, rather than Maj or min 6th. One could still employ Aug or dim in the usual context. I know my terminology is technically incorrect but I also believe it takes less explanation to achieve the desired result.

Sorry but this line of thinking will break down very quickly.

Raise and lowered are relative terms. For example if you raise a minor 7th you get a major 7th, and if you lower a major 7th you get a minor 7th. You still need to know how to define a minor 7th and a major 7th, or these terms are not useful. Also, when you say raised or lowered, it implies and alteration, so it's helpful to know what the notes is expected to be before the and after the alteration occurs.

Dorian mode does not feature a raised 6th, but that is a convenient way to remember the shape. In other words by comparing the Dorian mode to the pure minor scale (Aeolian). But actually the major 6th is native to the Dorian mode, so there is no alteration and the interval is not raised.

Likewise you can think of Locrian as minor with a minor 9th (lowered) and diminished 5th (lowered), but this is not technically correct either. It's just a memory aide to remember the shape on the fret board. The minor 9th and diminished 5th are native to the Locrian mode, so there is not alteration.

If you want to move forward with theory, I suggest you learn the intervals from the table @SteveCS provided in post #101. Otherwise you will be speaking your own made up language, instead of the common language of musicians.

IMHO the difference between C7 and C Maj7 is not that hard to comprehend. If you are going to learn to read chord notation you need to learn how to recognize and differentiate between the various ways a chord might be notated.

For example, C Maj7, CM7, CΔ7 are all the same chord. Also, C min7, Cm7, C-7 are all the same chord. In the US you don't see different notation for the basic dominant 7 chord. So if anything, there should be less confusion with C7. The only exception I have seen is the occasional use of C Dom7...and this is very, very rare and totally unnecessary.

 

[SteveCS]

the table @SteveCS provided in post #101

Just a quick note on that table. The 'diminished unison', top left, doesn't really exist as an interval in practice because intervals are always reckoned from the lowest note up. Of course it is possible to play a semitone down and keep the letter name, E - Eb for example, but the interval is an augmented unison, Eb > E.

 

[MixBass]

Sorry but this line of thinking will break down very quickly.

Raise and lowered are relative terms. For example if you raise a minor 7th you get a major 7th, and if you lower a major 7th you get a minor 7th. You still need to know how to define a minor 7th and a major 7th, or these terms are not useful. Also, when you say raised or lowered, it implies and alteration, so it's helpful to know what the notes is expected to be before the and after the alteration occurs.

Dorian mode does not feature a raised 6th, but that is a convenient way to remember the shape. In other words by comparing the Dorian mode to the pure minor scale (Aeolian). But actually the major 6th is native to the Dorian mode, so there is no alteration and the interval is not raised.

Likewise you can think of Locrian as minor with a minor 9th (lowered) and diminished 5th (lowered), but this is not technically correct either. It's just a memory aide to remember the shape on the fret board. The minor 9th and diminished 5th are native to the Locrian mode, so there is not alteration.

If you want to move forward with theory, I suggest you learn the intervals from the table @SteveCS provided in post #101. Otherwise you will be speaking your own made up language, instead of the common language of musicians.

IMHO the difference between C7 and C Maj7 is not that hard to comprehend. If you are going to learn to read chord notation you need to learn how to recognize and differentiate between the various ways a chord might be notated.

For example, C Maj7, CM7, CΔ7 are all the same chord. Also, C min7, Cm7, C-7 are all the same chord. In the US you don't see different notation for the basic dominant 7 chord. So if anything, there should be less confusion with C7. The only exception I have seen is the occasional use of C Dom7...and this is very, very rare and totally unnecessary.

I completely understand the table. My point is nearly every student I’ve come across finds the nomenclature confusing. That said... Cmin Maj7 seems less confusing to most but that usually comes further down the road. The fact that sooo many players who have played for years (not necessarily pros but decent players) don’t know CMaj7 is not C7 proves my point that it’s confusing. I find it easier to get the concept across as raised or lowered to begin with and introduce proper terminology afterwards. It’s not a hill I will die on, simply an observation and trying different ways to get someone to quickly grasp the difference.
If Dorian doesn’t feature a raised 6th as it’s most identifiable feature (other than minor) what would it be?

 

[MixBass]

For fun another observation.
When teaching the numbers of Ionian:
Once a student learns the scale and numbers (for ex G)
I have never once seen someone intuitively go down from the low G to F# if I ask where the 7 is. Always all the way up!

 

[Wasnex]

I completely understand the table. My point is nearly every student I’ve come across finds the nomenclature confusing. That said... Cmin Maj7 seems less confusing to most but that usually comes further down the road. The fact that sooo many players who have played for years (not necessarily pros but decent players) don’t know CMaj7 is not C7 proves my point that it’s confusing. I find it easier to get the concept across as raised or lowered to begin with and introduce proper terminology afterwards. It’s not a hill I will die on, simply an observation and trying different ways to get someone to quickly grasp the difference.
If Dorian doesn’t feature a raised 6th as it’s most identifiable feature (other than minor) what would it be?

IMHO, students should understand how to properly define intervals, and also what happens to an interval when you raise or lower a note.

I don't really think in half steps and whole steps at this point. For the most part, I have fairly strong associations between common note names and common intervals. I do have to stop and think with uncommon notes and intervals, but when I am playing I often revert to using a box shape, if a note name is tricky.

This knowledge was formed mostly in my first few semesters of college-level music theory and aural training. It's not something I really expect people who have not received formal training to understand, but some do.

If someone does not know the difference between CMaj7 and C7, you need to clarify if the problem is understanding the notation, or understanding the differences in the two chords. If they understand the difference in the two chords, it should be easy to clarify the differences in the notation: When the symbol indicates minor 7, both the 3rd and 7th are minor. When the symbol indicates major 7, both the third and 7th are major. When the symbol only indicates 7, the 3rd is major and the 7th is minor.

Dorian
The 6th is major; not raised. The key signature for D Dorian has no accidentals, because it is a relative mode of C major. C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, B Locrian. All of these share the same key signature, so they are relative. When a note is within the key signature it is called diatonic and it is not raise or lowered. In other words, you don't apply an accidental to it when you write out the notes.

Parallel modes all start on the same note. You are thinking of D Dorian as the parallel mode to D minor, which has a Bb in the key signature...thus you think D Dorian has a raised 6th. As I mentioned this can be a useful way of thinking about the shapes of the modes, but it's not technically correct. The key signature for D Dorian is the same as C Major, as shown above.

Here's how you are thinking of it

This was originally a D minor scale, but I added a natural sign in front of the Bb to make it D Dorian. This is the correct shape for D Dorian, but the B natural is not diatonic to this key signature, so the 6th must be raised.

To illustrate the problem with just thinking about it as a raised interval, we could also impose D Dorian over the key signature for Bb Major/G minor

Note. In this example we must raise the 2nd and the 6th to get the correct shape for D Dorian.

Or how about the key signature for D Major/B minor

To get the shape of D Dorian you have to flat the 3rd and 7th.

Notice we keep using accidentals to totally cancel out the key signature. This is because the key signature for D Dorian has no accidentals.

Hopefully this makes my point. You should should be thinking of D Dorian as the 2nd mode of C Major, rather than just thinking of it as D minor with a raised 6th.

FYI, I use the idea of parallel modes as a shortcut to think of box patterns on my fretboard. For example, since I know minor box patterns, I can easily alter them to Dorian mode by raising the sixth. My point is IMHO it's okay to think about D Dorian this way as long as you also know the key signature for D Dorian has no sharps or flats. In fact I think it's a good idea to use both the relative and parallel concepts...I.E. think of it both ways, but know the right way.

Here's an article that covers relative and parallel modes: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[mambo4]

I think intervals such as 6th or 7th are easier to comprehend as raised or lowered rather than Maj or min.

It is confusing because naming intervals by themselves and
notating chord extensions with shorthand symbols are different contexts.

in fact much of the confusion in theory comes from applying the English terminology form one context to another

what's not confusing? notated examples.

 

[Papageno]

If Dorian doesn’t feature a raised 6th as it’s most identifiable feature (other than minor) what would it be?

It is not a raised 6th (which means nothing without stating raised with respect to what). It is a major 6th.

 

[mambo4]

@MixBass I think part of your confusion stems from not using major(ionian) scale as standard rule against which all intervals and scales must be compared. The answer to "raised/lowered with respect to what" should almost always be the major scale.

If you learned Dorian as a modified minor scale, it may seem logical to say the "6th is raised"
If you view Dorian as a modified major scale, you see the see a minor 7th and a minor 3rd.

In fact, I always compare scales (and intervals and chord tones) to the major scale, as I am sure many others do.
It gives a nice shorthand for memorizing:

Major 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
etc...

 

[Richard Lindsey]

It is not a raised 6th (which means nothing without stating raised with respect to what). It is a major 6th.

Yes, this is exactly the problem with using terms like "raised" for intervals when you haven't defined your context: raised from what?

The value of using the standard terms is that they always specify the same distance, the same number of steps/half-steps. G to F is always a minor 7th interval, whether you see it in a G7 acting as a V7 of C or a V7 of IV in G, or in a nondiatonic Ebmaj9 in C, or in a Bb6/9 acting as a IV in F.