Why does this chord progression sound good even though it's using notes not in the correct key?

[Richard Lindsey]

There may be other terms for things but if I play a Cmaj7 with an augmented seven and I flatten the third, this is what I see:

I get what you mean, but it does help to use the right terminology, if only for better communication with other musicians and better understanding of music theory resources you encounter.

Specifically, referring to the B natural in a Cm(maj7) chord as "augmented" is incorrect and may well get you into difficulties. The interval involved, C-B, is a major seventh; the interval C-Bb is a minor 7th. An augmented 7th would be C-B#.

 

[stringtapper]

It's augmenting where the seventh note is normally played in the C7 chord. Which, again, is kind of what you need to know in order to play the chord.

But why use a C7 as the basis of constructing a CMaj7? It's super weird.

If anything the teaching device of going Maj7, (dom)7, min7, min7b5, dim7 seems to be the most logical because it starts with one chord formation and then slowly alters it by lowering particular pitches by a half step.

• CMaj7 = C-E-G-B
• C7 = C-E-G-Bb
• Cmin7 = C-Eb-G-Bb
• Cm7b5 = C-Eb-Gb-Bb
• Cº7 = C-Eb-Gb-Bbb

See how that works?

 

[Richard Lindsey]

As punishment…?

Nah, he just means that that tune is an example of the IV-iii-ii-I progression, which is what some of us feel the OP is doing.

 

[LBS-bass]

But why use a C7 as the basis of constructing a CMaj7? It's super weird.

If anything the teaching device of going Maj7, (dom)7, min7, min7b5, dim7 seems to be the most logical because it starts with one chord formation and then slowly alters it by lowering particular pitches by a half step.

• CMaj7 = C-E-G-B
• C7 = C-E-G-Bb
• Cmin7 = C-Eb-G-Bb
• Cm7b5 = C-Eb-Gb-Bb
• Cº7 = C-Eb-Gb-Bbb

See how that works?

Yep, that's how I normally practice through those changes so that I understand how they relate to each other. But when you are more familiar with the C7 which is used more often than a Cmaj7, it's kind of a mnemonic to remember that all you have to do is move that pinky up.

 

[LBS-bass]

I get what you mean, but it does help to use the right terminology, if only for better communication with other musicians and better understanding of music theory resources you encounter.

Specifically, referring to the B natural in a Cm(maj7) chord as "augmented" is incorrect and may well get you into difficulties. The interval involved, C-B, is a major seventh; the interval C-Bb is a minor 7th. An augmented 7th would be C-B#.

I hear you, but I think the odds of my getting into that conversation are slim. I'm playing what's on the charts and if I hear someone playing the wrong chord I'm just going to tell them which notes they should be changing.

 

[stringtapper]

Nah, he just means that that tune is an example of the IV-iii-ii-I progression, which is what some of us feel the OP is doing.

I know, I was making fun of our little off-topic excursion here.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

But why use a C7 as the basis of constructing a CMaj7? It's super weird.

If anything the teaching device of going Maj7, (dom)7, min7, min7b5, dim7 seems to be the most logical because it starts with one chord formation and then slowly alters it by lowering particular pitches by a half step.

• CMaj7 = C-E-G-B
• C7 = C-E-G-Bb
• Cmin7 = C-Eb-G-Bb
• Cm7b5 = C-Eb-Gb-Bb
• Cº7 = C-Eb-Gb-Bbb

See how that works?

Or, to generalize that, as it was taught to me in my Mel Bay guitar books many years ago, if you start with the assumption that numbers 1-7 are the degrees of the major scale, any major scale, then:

maj7 = 1 3 5 7
7 = 1 3 5 b7
m7 (min7) = 1 b3 5 b7
m7b5 = 1 b3 b5 b7
dim7 = 1 b3 b5 bb7

 

[stringtapper]

Yep, that's how I normally practice through those changes so that I understand how they relate to each other. But when you are more familiar with the C7 which is used more often than a Cmaj7, it's kind of a mnemonic to remember that all you have to do is move that pinky up.

I see. It's a question of exposure and what type of music you normally play.

Your perception that dominant sevenths are used more often than major sevenths is definitely a product of the music you play, because that's definitely not a universal truth in all music.

 

[LBS-bass]

I see. It's a question of exposure and what type of music you normally play.

Your perception that dominant sevenths are used more often than major sevenths is definitely a product of the music you play, because that's definitely not a universal truth in all music.

Well let's continue this offline so as to not continue the OT conversation, as it's clearly bugging someone (though I think someone else could find it useful).

 

[stringtapper]

Or, to generalize that, as it was taught to me in my Mel Bay guitar books many years ago, if you start with the assumption that numbers 1-7 are the degrees of the major scale, any major scale, then:

maj7 = 1 3 5 7
7 = 1 3 5 b7
m7 (min7) = 1 b3 5 b7
m7b5 = 1 b3 b5 b7
dim7 = 1 b3 b5 bb7

That's right, all of the naming conventions we use stem from this kind of diatonic thinking. But if folks haven't actually learned those basic concepts of the diatonic scale before they start dealing with things like seventh chords, then a lot of it can get lost and confusion may abound.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I hear you, but I think the odds of my getting into that conversation are slim. I'm playing what's on the charts and if I hear someone playing the wrong note I'm just going to tell them which note they should be changing.

Fair enough. If it's a single-note instrument, it makes perfect sense to say, No, that's a B natural, not a B flat. If it's a chordal instrument, you're better off specifying the "flavor" of the chord--thus, if someone's playing a C7 where that's the wrong flavor, you'd say, No, that's a MAJOR seventh chord. Either way, telling them to "augment" the seventh wouldn't be a good idea.

 

[stringtapper]

I kinda wish the three hijackers who’ve commandeered this thread to argue about about triads versus chords for three g**damned pages, would relocate their argument to another thread or private thread, rather than air their theory contest here.

Surely as a music educator yourself you can see the value of clarifying musical terminology, can't you?

 

[Mushroo]

A major seventh chord isn't a major chord with a seven tacked on. It refers to playing the seven a half-step up.

On C7 the 7 is played as a Bb. On Cmaj 7 the 7 is a B. And so on. You can have a C minor chord with a major 7.

I agree 100%. This is one of my favorite posts in the thread. Not only do you have a good understand of theory, you also have a knack for explaining it. Those two skills do not always go hand in hand.

 

[stringtapper]

I agree 100%. This is one of the best posts in the thread.

 

[LBS-bass]

I agree 100%. This is one of my favorite posts in the thread. Not only do you have a good understand of theory, you also have a knack for explaining it. Those two skills do not always go hand in hand.

No, I don't. I am and will always be a hack with a decent ear. I have a bit of practical experience in explaining things to people who don't hear so well, but may or may not know more theory than I do. Unless it's a simple chord, I can't see myself telling anyone what chord to play. I can see myself (and have many times) explaining what notes to put in that chord, though. Seems to work for just about everyone and I've worked with a lot of different people with different levels of training.

 

[LBS-bass]

I see. It's a question of exposure and what type of music you normally play.

Your perception that dominant sevenths are used more often than major sevenths is definitely a product of the music you play, because that's definitely not a universal truth in all music.

No, not really. The music I play right now and the music I write is full of all sorts of chords. But the music other people want me to play is almost certainly full of basic major, minor, and dominant seventh chords. It's just way easier to just say to someone "move that seven up" than it is to go into a long discussion if they don't understand what the chord form on the chart they're looking at is supposed to be.

 

[Mushroo]

No, I don't. I am and will always be a hack with a decent ear. I have a bit of practical experience in explaining things to people who don't hear so well, but may or may not know more theory than I do. Unless it's a simple chord, I can't see myself telling anyone what chord to play. I can see myself (and have many times) explaining what notes to put in that chord, though. Seems to work for just about everyone and I've worked with a lot of different people with different levels of training.

For a "hack" you sure know a lot of right answers.

 

[stringtapper]

Oy vey.

 

[SteveCS]

the major seventh chords I'm playing are all augmented at the seven by a half-step

It's augmenting where the "seventh note" is normally played in the C7 chord. Which, again, is kind of what you need to know in order to play the chord

Intervals of the Unison, 4th and 5th can be Diminished, Perfect or Augmented.

Intervals of 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th can be Diminished, Minor, Major or Augmented.

Each is a semitone or half-step from the it's neighbour.

So;
A Minor 7th is 10 semitones, say C to Bb.
A Major 7th is 11 semitones, C - B
An augmented 7th is 12 semitones, C - B#
A diminished 7th is 9 semitones, C - Bbb.

I normally end with YMMV, but these are the facts., so it won't!

 

[LBS-bass]

Intervals of the Unison, 4th and 5th can be Diminished, Perfect or Augmented.

Intervals of 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th can be Diminished, Minor, Major or Augmented.

Each is a semitone or half-step from the it's neighbour.

So;
A Minor 7th is 10 semitones, say

Intervals of the Unison, 4th and 5th can be Diminished, Perfect or Augmented.

Intervals of 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th can be Diminished, Minor, Major or Augmented.

Each is a semitone or half-step from the it's neighbour.

So;
A Minor 7th is 10 semitones, say C to Bb.
A Major 7th is 11 semitones, C - B
An augmented 7th is 12 semitones, C - B#
A diminished 7th is 9 semitones, C - Bbb.

I normally end with YMMV, but these are the facts., so it won't!

Thank you! As my theory is spotty at best, it helps to have a good explanation of how and why I was wrong with the terminology. I actually do very much appreciate this.