As @dreamadream99 said.
You are in G major and C is the IV chord.
The full chords
C,E,G,B
B,D,F#,A
A,C,E,G
G,B,D,F#
If played a melody over this progression, you would use an F# throughout. F natural would sound odd over any of the chords IMHO.
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Why does this chord progression sound good even though it's using notes not in the correct key?
- Thread starter DuckSoup
- Start date
As @dreamadream99 said.
You are in G major and C is the IV chord.
The full chords
C,E,G,B
B,D,F#,A
A,C,E,G
G,B,D,F#
If played a melody over this progression, you would use an F# throughout. F natural would sound odd over any of the chords IMHO.
I agree, with the caveat that It's about the actual frequency you're playing, not fret position. Down low (say the lowest octave or most of it), if you play anything closer than an octave, you can get your self into mudville. A bit higher in frequency, a fifth is OK, then a fourth, and eventually, a third. It depends a bit on the rig you're playing through as to where you can play what intervals - it's actually the difference frequency of the two notes you're playing that's the "mud" - how much non-linearity you have in your rig (intermodulation distortion is the technical term for what we're talking about here), and how well the speakers handle that difference frequency is why sometimes you can get away with more, sometimes less.
Probably has already been stated, but by using root-third-seventh voicings and omitting the 5th, you are creating some ambiguity. For example, that "B minor" sounds minor and not half diminished because there is no diminished 5th to "tell" you the tonal center is based around C. Consequently, that B minor, with the implicit F#, creates more of a lydian sound descending back to what would be the tonal center of G.
One other thing to keep in mind is that when the roots of your chords step down like in your progression, you can stick just about any non-diatonic chord in there and have it sound good. The movement of the bass notes creates enough structure that the quality of the chords has less importance to the ear - the bass line grounds things enough. That's just another way you can easily borrow chords from other keys and make them fit.
"Sounds right" will usually just get you to what other songs "sound like". "Wrong" notes and chords can be very interesting if used tastefully. As a guitar player too, I know what it is like to feel restricted to the same patterns and shapes of chords.
Matching a chord progression to a melody can sometimes provide interesting results. In addition, learning some basic piano skills can really open things up since you can play a chord and a melody at the same time unlike guitar where that can be challenging.
There is a Beatles song called "Honey Don't" (Carl Perkins) where the first chord is an E and then it goes to a C major. There is something so jarring about those two chords next to each other, but then when you listen to the lyrics, they are referring to a woman who seems to change her mind often. In this way, the form of the song supports the lyric. So cool.
Some of these points have definitely been said, but nonetheless:
Omitting the 5th is ok. I personally love playing 1 3 7 triads, especially on bass. As many have said, your chord progression is in G major. Another way you can find this out is through the circle of fifths chord progression (image below). If this chord progression was in C major, it wouldn't make much sense for the Bm7b5 to go to the Am (viio to vi). In G major it is a little easier to see. The iii chord is the same as the I chord it's just missing the root. If you take away the G in a Gmaj7 you have a Bm triad. Therefore, we can say this is a IV-I-ii-I progression. IV-I works because it is what's called a plagal cadence. Basically, it's one of the three "shortcuts" you can make on the circle of fifths chord progression. ii-I doesn't technically work, but it's not too large of a skip so it sounds fine.
Omitting the 5th is ok. I personally love playing 1 3 7 triads, especially on bass. As many have said, your chord progression is in G major. Another way you can find this out is through the circle of fifths chord progression (image below). If this chord progression was in C major, it wouldn't make much sense for the Bm7b5 to go to the Am (viio to vi). In G major it is a little easier to see. The iii chord is the same as the I chord it's just missing the root. If you take away the G in a Gmaj7 you have a Bm triad. Therefore, we can say this is a IV-I-ii-I progression. IV-I works because it is what's called a plagal cadence. Basically, it's one of the three "shortcuts" you can make on the circle of fifths chord progression. ii-I doesn't technically work, but it's not too large of a skip so it sounds fine.
@DuckSoup
As others have said, You have some fundamental errors in your chord creation that suggest you need to back up. Since school in my district has been all virtual, I have been using musictheory.net to teach my students music theory. It's a fairly basic website, but it lays everything out visually in a way thats easy to understand. Plus it's free! Go to the lessons tab and just start clicking through at your own pace. There are even flashcard type quizzes you can take. Even my freshman drummers are getting it and testing well.
In the 'lessons' tab, I suggest working through the lessons in these 3 categories and in this order...
' SCALES AND KEY SIGNATURES > INTERVALS > CHORDS '. After you have done a lesson, immediately take a corresponding quiz in the 'Exercises' tab.
Like I said, there are way more flashy and state of the art apps and websites than this, but this one is easy to follow and I've seen it work on all levels of students.
- Shane
OH! edit because I forgot to mention... in tandem with the above, you can use this cool virtual bass I have found that will show you the notes on the neck and etc... Virtual bass guitar | Musicca
As others have said, You have some fundamental errors in your chord creation that suggest you need to back up. Since school in my district has been all virtual, I have been using musictheory.net to teach my students music theory. It's a fairly basic website, but it lays everything out visually in a way thats easy to understand. Plus it's free! Go to the lessons tab and just start clicking through at your own pace. There are even flashcard type quizzes you can take. Even my freshman drummers are getting it and testing well.
In the 'lessons' tab, I suggest working through the lessons in these 3 categories and in this order...
' SCALES AND KEY SIGNATURES > INTERVALS > CHORDS '. After you have done a lesson, immediately take a corresponding quiz in the 'Exercises' tab.
Like I said, there are way more flashy and state of the art apps and websites than this, but this one is easy to follow and I've seen it work on all levels of students.
- Shane
OH! edit because I forgot to mention... in tandem with the above, you can use this cool virtual bass I have found that will show you the notes on the neck and etc... Virtual bass guitar | Musicca
Bingo. I was going to say this exactly and I scrolled through the thread first to see if anyone else said it yet, and here you guys are! A major chord going to a minor chord a 1/2 step down... I immediately think IV to iii. It’s the only “place” that typically happens, and of course the rest of the chords fall right into place... a step down to ii and another step down to I.
Our ears are trained to hear the key from listening to music all our lives, even when some of us aren’t sure what the key even is. OP, it means at least you have a decent ear because you knew it didn’t sound technically “right” to play F#. In the future, I suggest finding the note that the song comes to a rest on - in other words, the note you would end on for it to sound resolved. In this case it’s G, not C. That would’ve been your first clue you’re in G major.
The dominant 7 chord (G in your case) is a great opportunity for getting a little adventurous and playing out. You may try the following sample approaches for a little spice:
- Tritone substitute (Use notes of C#7)
- Altered scale (Use notes of G# melodic minor)
- Mixolydian b13 scale (Use notes of G7 but include Eb)
- Diminished scale (Use notes of B diminished)
- Side-stepping (Use notes of G#7 briefly then return to G7)
- Side-whole tone scale (Use notes G# A# C D E F#)
Impossible to provide anything of value in response to the way the situation was described. Your chords are all screwed up, first of all. All you list are roots, thirds, and sevenths. On a bass, if you are totally avoiding fifths, but playing sevenths, your ear is going to get confused; there won't be a tonal "anchor." But mainly, we have no context for the chords and progression being discussed.
Without music context (e.g. a melody, or other instruments in the arrangement), who is to say that you are actually playing a 1 down to a 5? And without the fifth listed in each chord, we can't even say whether you are going 1, 7 or 4, 3. It's just nebulous notes out in space the way it was described.
A simple, crappy recording would be worth 1,000 words here.
Without music context (e.g. a melody, or other instruments in the arrangement), who is to say that you are actually playing a 1 down to a 5? And without the fifth listed in each chord, we can't even say whether you are going 1, 7 or 4, 3. It's just nebulous notes out in space the way it was described.
A simple, crappy recording would be worth 1,000 words here.
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You need more study... but, good for you at at least starting the journey.
Or he could be in C. Everything is pretty ambiguous since the chords are missing 5ths. You're correct that if he was in G, then the F# note would be correct. If his ear prefers that, then he is playing in G major. If he's in C, the F would be correct and sound fine. Since he mentioned that F# was outside of the key, I took it that he meant C.
This is a good conversation, though. With just the bass playing chords, what other instruments play further defines the harmony and perhaps in unexpected ways. Just because the root motion appears to be C, B, A, G the chords need not be Cmaj7, Bdim7, Am7, G7 (or Cmaj7, Bm7 (with the missing F#), Am7,Gmaj7)...the real progession could be something quite different.
I'm thinking along the lines of someone playing a G triad over the assumed Cmaj7, for instance. Is it a G/C, a Cmaj9, etc.
How about taking the B, D, A and adding a G? Then you could have the progression as Cmaj7 -> G9...I and V. For the A, C, G adding an E the chord would work as a C6. So the true progression could be:
Cmaj7 -> G9 -> C6 -> G7
Now imagine this slow descending melody over those chords:
B -> A -> G -> F
Now add a guitar playing power chords:
C5 -> G5 -> C -> G5
That might sound like crap, but it would be pretty interesting harmonically. I should try banging that out on a keyboard to hear what it sounds like
Context is everything.
Here's the example I mentioned above.
Piano plays OP's original chordds (no fifths)
Descending synth melody plays the 7ths
Guitar plays C5-G5
Strings play C and G triads
In the middle, piano changes to Cmaj7-G7, and then each part is removed one by one. Notice that both piano progressions work under the melody, but the whole feel of the piece is different when the piano chords change even though the other chordal instruments are just playing I-V
Piano plays OP's original chordds (no fifths)
Descending synth melody plays the 7ths
Guitar plays C5-G5
Strings play C and G triads
In the middle, piano changes to Cmaj7-G7, and then each part is removed one by one. Notice that both piano progressions work under the melody, but the whole feel of the piece is different when the piano chords change even though the other chordal instruments are just playing I-V
Try this same progression using the fifth of each chord rather than the seventh, and see if that F# still sounds more appropriate on the G chord...
my thoughts exactly. OP, no harm done and we love the effort! Just make sure to go back and learn chord spelling - so many great sources for free out there.
back to your topic (which again, you are going to be better off revisiting this in a few weeks or months) being "in a key" (we call that diatonic) is just one way to do things. think of it kind of like following a recipe. you can add other things as needed. nobody will go "no! that's not in the recipe!" if it still tastes good, right?
Attachments
meaning to be entirely pedantic,
"triad" typically implies a stacked thirds , 1,3,5
though some push the definition beyond this
a 1,3,7 voicing is usually called a "shell Voicing"
the addition of a note that doesn't seem to belong is called an incidental or accidental and is a powerful tool in music theory. first of all they are often used to setup key changes. or to add tension to the sound. if several notes are out of key the entire work falls apart. But a single note or chord can add to the complexity. The Beatles were famous for this, especially using a iv rather than IV, and to give a surprise at the end of a song. google "the Beatle Chord"
or "strange Beatles chord".
All I know is that I need to stay away from root/7ths and even root/3rds simultaneously with the root anywhere in the first octave on a 4 string. It always sounds like crap even if it sounds good an octave higher. Maybe because the root's fundamental frequency is so close to notes near it (or close to double with the 7th above the root.) Perhaps instead of being harmonious at low frequencies, it just yields obnoxious "beats" that occur when frequencies are close. Or something like that.
Sure they do. A Major 7th chord is major after all.
Major triads do not include the seventh, so maybe that’s what you meant?
