Fergie - I'll have to admit, your pictures leave me a bit confused. The last two - the ones showing the evils of traditional technique - seem to me more like critiques of bad technique. I mean, the wrist angle is bad, yes, but it's also completely unnecessary. When done right there really isn't any difference in wrist angle between the baseball bat/tin can approach and traditional technique - I mean, relax your grip on the pics in number 5, and you're practically there.
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Why for you thumb position.. not where
- Thread starter Fergie Fulton
- Start date
Your correct in the sense that it show a bad position, and one not to be sustained for long periods of time. Far from being evil as you say, not me, it shows a position that is very unstable for the wrist and that can lead to damage.
I am not bashing traditional thinking, i am showing that there are other ways to play if you have problems, or are trying to conform to the genral idea of whats considered proper technique. I am also showing that one method does not suit all.
Everyones playing life is different due to the circumstances of your day. The hands get enough exercise from day to day life without putting extra work on them. As players we put theat extra work on them. hands were never designed for this. There are surguries all over the deveoped world full of people with hand problems. All i do is show another way by keeping the thumbs neuteral for the use of a better word.
Your hands are different from mine in range of motion and strength, what you don't see in that picture is the bass i am holding has 120 on the E, 100 on the A, 80 on the D and 60 on the G, flat wound with a high action, and i mean high, and tuned a semitone flat. That is my playing style. So when it is said that i can use say another or better technique for better speed and motion, it is ludicrus i will never acheve it with that set up, which by the way gives me a wicked blues sound.
- Apr 1, 2000
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- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
Sorry, Fergie - my upright strings make yours look like super slinkies, and yet I play with curved fingers and my palm off the neck. It's very possible to play your setup with correct technique.
Having seen your pictures, I must warn anyone that playing like this is not a good approach. Not only that, but your own pictures argue against what you're saying. First you show the hands in a neutral position - very similar to how you'd hold them with the "cup" technique. Then, when you turn turn them to show your playing position, you crank your left thumb out like you're hitchhiking, adding muscle tension at the very least.
This might work for you, and I won't argue that. However, I'd strongly caution anyone else considering using this technique. See a qualified instructor, and work with them.
Having seen your pictures, I must warn anyone that playing like this is not a good approach. Not only that, but your own pictures argue against what you're saying. First you show the hands in a neutral position - very similar to how you'd hold them with the "cup" technique. Then, when you turn turn them to show your playing position, you crank your left thumb out like you're hitchhiking, adding muscle tension at the very least.
This might work for you, and I won't argue that. However, I'd strongly caution anyone else considering using this technique. See a qualified instructor, and work with them.
Ha ha for sure the super slinkies comparision to an up-right.
You use the word crank to describe my thumb position. It is not cranked it is there because that is its position in a natural healthy hand when applied to the neck. As stated you must move your hand from the position i have shown in photo 3 on the right, to bring your thumb in front of the fingers. It is not in a hitchhiking position, because that entails making a fist.
As you say the pictures argue against what i'm saying, so because i'm not stupid enough to argue with myself you have not understood what i am saying. The thumb is not fixed in the position you call cranked out, it can go there if it wants like the thumb over the top, its part of the motion of playing, which means that we are closer on this than you think. i have so many photos of the hands, but i cannot upload them, i had to make a decision on what ones to show and explain whats going on. The point that these pictures are not fixed positions, but part of motion is clearly stated.
So i ask you can you show me or point me to me to research that shows what i have said or shown is dangerous?
I see that you strongly caution anyone from trying what i say, when i am only offering it as something "to consider".
The demands on the body for the up right are completly different to that of an electric guitar and the two should really not be used in comparison.
The precision is just one set up i have a lighter set up that takes the same techniques Jon, and like i say to anyone who tries something that is physically new to them talk to a qualified medical profesional about your specific case if you have one. A qualified instructor is not going to give me the relevent medical advice you can get from medical profesional, the two need to run hand in hand, sorry for the pun LOL.
I'm i'm neither Jimmy, but that is by choice.
I am a bass player of over 35 years experience of playing form jazz to classical, rock to reggie, how well i have done that is for others to decide, but i keep getting asked, so take it i do something they like. I have the luxury of playing blues, which is in complete contrast to this subject but so closely linked many ways.
Blues players of the early years were never trained or taught "proper technique" because it was not there. In this void they developed many techniques, sounds and tunings that we use today. They learned from those around them and those who visited, and in doing so picked up the plus and minus sides of their playing and technique, the good and the bad if you will.
I have seen a fantastic bluesman recently who has a 3 string guitar he plays slide on. No one how teaches slide technique i imagine would teach that you use only three strings as standard way, but its not wrong as proving by this man. Now i believe, Victor Wootan is looking to record using a slide at some point in the future unless he already has. So the point is if i go to a bass in structor can he or she show me the pros and cons of this technique?
Once again as i have stated
This is in no way defending what i posted, but as an insight in to why i say what i say. I have had the benifit of great medical supervision in the past months, and talked extensivly about what i have posted. I have used the positions in what i posted since the 80s. Due to a car smash, in which i was a passenger, i broke my neck at C7 and my right hand/arm recieved muscle and nerve damage that left me paralysed in my upper right side as a result. In the months that followed it i had in "remarkable" time using the exercises i incorporate in my daily playing life regained muscle definition and co-ordination back, but the damage in my neck is blocking a full recovery of all my motor functions in my hands. According to the specialists that dealt with me, both hands are fully healthy. The problem i have now is that something in the C7, C8 area of my neck is inhibiting nerve impulses to my arms so i am to have nerve conduction tests carried out, where i will be able to disscuss more of what i posted with that specialist. What i talk about is not just a personal view, it is the views of many medical profesionals in their fields.
As pointed out by Jimmy i have added the word "medical" in front of the word professionals to state their field. Its points of relevence like that that will help make what i am trying to say become clearer. I have recently edited the original blog again to address the relevent points made from this thread in its presentation.
I take it that the only point of contention is the fretting hand thumb postions. On this point let me state that what you see in the picture is a single snap shot of motion when the thumb is pointing at the head stock. It is free to adopt ANY position between what is showing in pic. 5 and pic.6 and pic. 11. But in pic.11 the wrist break is excessive, and is a position to be avoided as much as possible.
Here is the link again for those that need to catch up or those that want to check out the changes;
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Just out of interest i searched through the info i have collected for a good reference about "lifes effects" on the hands.
This is Dr. Robert Markison talking about how modern life affects the hands and the problems he sees in his surgery daily..its an interesting read in 5 pages, enjoy.
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I'm sorry if I'm missing something, but I don't have the patience to read through all this..
When I first started playing, I would rest my palm on on top of the bass, and then playing like that.. But as things progressed, I started resting my thumb on the neck, and playing over it (thanks to Geezer Butler), and I usually play like that, or if I'm using my Jazz, it's either on the neck pickup, or on the E string (can't use the Geezer technique because it sounds like crap
). With my P its over the neck mainly, unless it's for our heavier songs then I play by the bridge (in the middle of the ashtrays)
When I first started playing, I would rest my palm on on top of the bass, and then playing like that.. But as things progressed, I started resting my thumb on the neck, and playing over it (thanks to Geezer Butler), and I usually play like that, or if I'm using my Jazz, it's either on the neck pickup, or on the E string (can't use the Geezer technique because it sounds like crap
). With my P its over the neck mainly, unless it's for our heavier songs then I play by the bridge (in the middle of the ashtrays)
Everything everyone is saying is falling on deaf ears, so I'm out of this one. Sorry. I tried to hang with it, but you're obviously not looking for anything but for people to tell you how right on you are. So since I can't do that, then I wish you well and warn others to do these techniques at your own risk.
Sorry to lose you Jimmy, you points gave me good insight in to the way it was presented and allowed me to alter it accordingly.
A handfull of random unsupported claims is not everyone, unless we have only 15 or so members on this forum.
Now i have to be carefull here as i don't want to provoke, but can anyone show me or point me to documented, verified evidence of what i have said is wrong? What i am saying is speculative, thats the reason for posting it to find out different views not to be told it is right or wrong. In order to do that you are going to have to think about it, do your own research on the points and arrive at a conclusion. To do that you will have to do some work outside the field of bass playing.
Think on this, Why is an instrument the shape it is?
When was this instrument designed?
What was its purpose?
Is the technique i use purely so i can play this design?
Does the design take into account the strains of the technique used to play it?
Can this design be change to be more user frendly?
If i change the design, can i change the technique to play it.
and so on and so on.
When i am told that proper technique, for example on an up-right bass is taught, it is part to handle that instrument design, and part to play the music.
Stradivarius and his imitators did not have the access to the knowledge we have now and their instruments thou beautiful in looks and sound are by todays standards flawed because of the pressures they can put on the human body. Now that will cause fury in some people for me to say that. Since size or length and availability of material had to be considered, that is how the instruments were designed, not with the preformer in mind but the music, so technique followed and was developed as the norm for that instrument. These days we have better technology, better designs, better materials that allow for the preformer to create better angles and ease of play in many of these "new" instruments. New ways of playing, new instruments. If i went to the bass instructors available to me in the mid 70s and said "i want a 5 string instrument so i can apply classical ideas and techniques" i would have been told to forget bass and play guitar because that, it seems is what i really want to do. Look around today....what would those instructers make of todays wonderful instruments and players?
So for anyone who does not have the time or patience to read or understand whats been said before, here's the link again;
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