Why for you thumb position.. not where

[NickyBass]

You also asked why I thought you said 'straight.' I got that from this:

Keeping your fingers together point your thumbs out to the side. This is a neutral position.
If you look to the base of your palm you will see it is flat in respects that it has no ridges or valleys in its shape.

I took the word 'flat' to mean 'straight.'

Again, not arguing this---just discussing what works for me.

 

[mambo4]

This would be an ideal thread to post photos....

I have never given much thought to my RH floating anchor thumb position, I will have to examine it. I'm pretty sure my thumb an d fingers make a crabby claw, thus exerting pressure on the median nerve as described.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

You also asked why I thought you said 'straight.' I got that from this:




I took the word 'flat' to mean 'straight.'

Again, not arguing this---just discussing what works for me.

Thanks for that, and this is why i decided to post, i am usually about UK time from 9-10 am every day.

I can see the point. No the flat part only applies to the ridge or v shape that appears in the palm and the base of the hand when the thumb is brought across. To identify this area, make a gentle fist with the thumb gently against the side of the forefinger, what you can now see is the base of the palm and it is this area that needs to be keept flat. If you now open your fingers enough to allow the thumb t come acrossand touch the little finger you will see the valley or v start to form.

Great to see you have looked at you hands from two different views, the up-right and the bass guitar. Like i set out, this is something to consider. With so many posts on here about pain and problems I put this up as a " i have the technical information side, lets see if it relevent to players".
So all info, relevent questions, missunderstandings, errors, etc are welcome to get a balanced view and discussion.

Yes i have photos, so how do i post them here please?

 

[NickyBass]

I think I see what you're saying. Pictures would probably help the wording.

 

[JimmyM]

Fergie, you're a nice guy and you've obviously put a lot of thought into this, but you're putting out dangerous information as fact. Here's part of what you say:

To show you that position, turn your palms round and look at them.
Keeping your fingers together point your thumbs out to the side.
This is a neutral position.
If you look to the base of your palm you will see it is flat in respects that it has no ridges or valleys in its shape.
Now bring your thumbs in and put it in front of your forefingers.
Notice the valley starting to form at the base of the thumb pad in the centre at the base of the palm.
As you move to you little finger notice how this valley deepens, this is where hand trouble starts in respect of compressing the median nerve. The Median nerve runs through a narrow pathway of bone and ligament in the palm of your hand.

Repeated use of the thumb with this valley present will in the long run give you hand and finger problems.

As for the fretting hand ask yourself how often can i straighten my wrist? How often can i use my fingers? How often can i move my hand rather than stretching from a fixed position? And most important of all how often do i really need the top of my thumb directly behind the neck in front of my forefinger? The thumb is should be able to move from the neutral position for support when needed, not stay fixed in one position.
Let your thumb come over the top of the neck if need be, by doing so you let the pad at the bottom of the thumb and palm of the hand take the strain it is designed to handleand let the fingers do the work with a straight wrist.
Look at you hand with the thumb directly behind the neck in front of the forefinger, now point it towards the neck. You will notice the carpal tunnel area flattens allowing the whole of the base of the palm to take the strain.

Ask yourself this if i asked you to crush a tin can, would it be more effective to do it with the base of the palms or the tip of your thumbs, well any part of the thumbs really?

First, putting your thumb out to the side is NOT a neutral position. Neutral position means your hand is relaxed. Putting your thumb out to the side means your thumb is no longer relaxed. And while I do agree that putting your thumb directly between your two fingers is stressful WHILE YOUR PALM IS UP, nobody ever does that while they're playing. On the right hand, your palm is down. On the left, the neck of the bass prevents that from happening. I will give you that with your picking hand, putting your thumb out will not be too stressful as long as you don't over-extend it, but there's no benefit to that over just letting it hang loose. You based this conclusion on having your palm up. Since when you play bass with your palm up facing you?

OTOH, your left hand theory is just completely wrong. What does crushing a beer can have to do with playing the bass? And where would there be strain with normal fretting hand position with the thumb behind the neck for the palm to absorb? There isn't any, but if you let your thumb go up over the fingerboard (OOPS: should have added "and hold the neck like you're crushing a beer can"...sorry) , there certainly will be. And that's why teachers recommend keeping the thumb behind the neck with curved fingers that allow only the pads of the fingertips to touch the strings.

I can see you've put a lot of thought into this, but you've based your conclusions about hand position on things that have nothing to do with playing bass. Electric bass may be a relatively new isntrument, but the ergonomics of proper and safe technique have been worked out long before you and I started playing. Ignoring it in favor of your techniques, which have been developed through tasks completely unrelated to bass playing, not only is not good technique, but will certainly lead to the very stress problems you think you're avoiding.

In other words, don't try to reinvent the wheel. Accept that all the hard work about the ergonomics has been done for you already and can be learned from any teacher who has studied bass playing in an academic manner. And please don't put your theories out there as the proper technique because it just plain isn't. Your ideas will cause way more injuries than they prevent. And that is not opinion...that is fact.

Sorry to be the one to break it to you because I like you, but I take preventing repetitive hand injuries very seriously because I've had a couple, and the techniques you describe will absolutely result in injuries.

 

[JimmyM]

This would be an ideal thread to post photos....

I have never given much thought to my RH floating anchor thumb position, I will have to examine it. I'm pretty sure my thumb an d fingers make a crabby claw, thus exerting pressure on the median nerve as described.

That pressure on the median nerve is caused by putting your thumb and fingers together WHILE THE PALM IS FACING UP. When your hand is in normal playing position, there is no pressure on the median nerve or any other nerves by putting the thumb and fingers together.

Very dangerous info being presented as facts in these posts. If you're interested in proper technique, learn it from a teacher who is educated on the proper techniques that have been established now for about 50 years. I am surprised to learn that there are people in this thread who actually think proper ergonomic technique for bass isn't taught. Maybe it's not taught by YOUR teacher, but it's been taught for decades and it hasn't changed a bit since I started playing bass 34 years ago.

 

[fender_funk_man]

The interesting thing is very few teachers do teach ergonomics. I'm lucky enough to have one that does. If there was more teachers who did teach good technique there wouldnt be so many of us bass players with lousy technique. And it wouldnt be cool to put your bass around your knees. I agree that a lot of this information is wrong, especially stuff like having your thumbs strait up the neck.

However in saying that you made a comment about crushing beer cans. Your referring to my earlier post I assume. You clearly didnt actually read it. So i'll explain it again. Grab a cup, beer can, coffee mug etc. Take notice how your hand automatically positions itself to grab the object. This hand position is the neutral position for your hand. Now apply it to the neck. DONT SQUEEZE just let your hand hang of the neck. If you maintained that cup position your hands should be completely relaxed and your thumb will not be resting over the top of the fretboard.

 

[JimmyM]

However in saying that you made a comment about crushing beer cans. Your referring to my earlier post I assume. You clearly didnt actually read it. So i'll explain it again. Grab a cup, beer can, coffee mug etc. Take notice how your hand automatically positions itself to grab the object. This hand position is the neutral position for your hand. Now apply it to the neck. DONT SQUEEZE just let your hand hang of the neck. If you maintained that cup position your hands should be completely relaxed and your thumb will not be resting over the top of the fretboard.

I was actually referring to this line from Fergie's initial post:

"Ask yourself this if i asked you to crush a tin can, would it be more effective to do it with the base of the palms or the tip of your thumbs, well any part of the thumbs really?"

What you said about the can may not relate to bass playing, but it makes sense when you apply it to bass playing. What he said not only has no relation to bass playing, but if you put enough force to crush a beer can on your bass, you will be doing what's known as a "death grip" on your neck, and you will create a myriad of problems for your hand. Crushing a beer can uses different muscles for different reasons than fretting a bass and should never be used as a comparison for developing technique. Relaxation is key...what's relaxing about crushing a beer can?

 

[HaVIC5]

I went through a long period when I scrutinized every tiny movement that I made, and asked myself why I did that. That was when I was in college and had the time to really focus on my technique. It appears that you put in the time and research too.

That's what I did too and came to the contrary conclusion that Fergie did. No muscles in the hands should be used that don't need to be used. Extending the thumb to the headstock seems completely contrary to how my hand naturally relaxes into a neutral position palm down. Every authority on ergodynamics I've every consulted from doctors to teachers to practictioners of Alexander technique seem to agree that the less tension put on muscles in a repetitive activity the better. Why would I extend my thumb when I don't have to move it from its prone position? Is my body incorrect? Is the prone position for my thumb damaging the median nerve? Of course not, otherwise I would have gotten crippling carpal tunnel years ago just from standing around and doing nothing. Trust your body to tell you what's right and don't come up with weird rationalizations just because you can.

 

[unclejane]

Have to disagree also with the OP on several points:

The thumb coming around the top of the neck with the neck held in the palm is probably the only technique I'd condemn almost completely and in general.

Nothing is worse left hand technique than this except in very special circumstances like Louis Johnson's use of it (it's an integral part of how he plays, but his style is one-of-a-kind).

The neck should _never_ be supported by the left hand _ever_. The thumb should _virtually never_ be poking out over the top of the fingerboard. It should be behind the neck with the fingers arched over the fingerboard as much as possible. If you have to support the neck, the problem is likely poor balance of the bass (neck dive) and that needs to be corrected.

Carole Kaye gives a good illustration of proper left hand position and technique with respect to the thumb in the interview with her on bassplayer.tv. It's generally somewhere under the first finger and can act like a "pivot" when doing local shifts. That's the strongest position of the thumb.

LS

 

[headonastick]

A relaxed hand position is best viewed from the side, rather than looking at the palm like you describe. From the side (i.e. with your thumb and index finger closest to you and the other fingers behind them) your thumb and fingers should look like the letter C (or a reversed C depending on which hand you look at). Let your hands hang at your sides with all muscles relaxed and this is the shape they will form. For me this means that my thumb and index finger are the ones that I can touch together most easily, so I don't align my thumb and middle finger on the neck like some people advise, but this might vary for others. Stretching your hand completely flat is an unnatural hand position for almost anyone, however.

 

[nortonrider]

The thumb coming around the top of the neck with the neck held in the palm is probably the only technique I'd condemn almost completely and in general.

Nothing is worse left hand technique than this except in very special circumstances like Louis Johnson's use of it (it's an integral part of how he plays, but his style is one-of-a-kind).

So you are saying that it is wrong technique for everyone else on the planet EXCEPT Louis Johnson?
...just because he has a one of a kind style?

What if someone else has a "one of a kind style" and THEIR thumb slips over the top of the neck? Does that mean they are doing it wrong?

I'm from the "there is more than one way to skin a cat" school of thought. Has anyone else noticed the pic in the top right corner of this page?

 

[HaVIC5]

Technique should be about two things, health and efficiency, health being priority number one. It can be perfectly healthy to have the thumb poke out over the top of the neck, not very efficient likely, but plenty healthy. A significant number of individuals (including a certain Mr. Wooten) do this all the time to no detrimental effect.

 

[zeppelinfreak]

If you play with proper technique, that is, your thumb and index finger are always lined up, then you should never have any trouble with the median nerve.

Electric bass may be young, but upright bass is not. Most of the technique used on upright can be applied to electric, and it has been found that the most effective technique is the one most bassists use

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Hi all and thanks for the posts. To clear up what i am saying follow the link to my page and the blog which today i have managed to put pictures on. What i am saying is different and many people may disagree with it, which is why listed the links in the OP to let you draw your own conclussions and not influence you with just what i say.
I have over the years over come many problems not related to bass guitar playing direct, but which bass guitar playing highlights.

This is not a whim or just a random idea it has been studied and researched by me for over 15 years and the conclusions are mine. I have only just recently finished it all, as much as i can do so it needs to be put out there so look at it objectivly rather than personaly, you will be suprised how many of the positions you have in your own playing.

Check out the link and come back with any questions or relevent points and i will try and answer them if i can. Remember the pictures are static positions of motion in flow.

Link Removed

thanks

 

[JimmyM]

Technique should be about two things, health and efficiency, health being priority number one. It can be perfectly healthy to have the thumb poke out over the top of the neck, not very efficient likely, but plenty healthy. A significant number of individuals (including a certain Mr. Wooten) do this all the time to no detrimental effect.

The main reasons for keeping the thumb behind the neck are reach and freedom of motion, and it has less to do with preventing injury. Sure, we've all let our thumbs go over the neck occasionally with no detriment. But there's no positive benefit from doing it. May not injure you, but it certainly doesn't help you play better.

Going to look over Fergie's link here before I comment further...

EDIT: OK, just read his link. Aside from this silliness about holding the palm flat out in front of you, his RH thumb is definitely NOT out to the side in any of his playing pics. I would call his RH technique pretty good if the pics are any indications...he doesn't put his hand in any stressful positions. So at the very least, his flat palm/thumb to the side thing is completely irrelevant to playing bass, and doesn't describe at all what he's doing in the pics. But again, when you look at it, his technique is pretty good. If I were Fergie, I'd totally throw out all that nonsense and put in a more accurate description of what he's doing. The misunderstanding he created by the description could very well lead to serious injury.

The LH, however, is horrendous and could actually lead to problems because he's got the bottom of the neck resting on his palm, and the thumb hanging over the top of the neck. At the very least, this decreases mobility and accuracy by a longshot. The palm will drag on the neck and slow you down. The fingers are also no longer curved, and they're all bunched up together, as evidenced by the pics under item #6 on his blog. Plus he's got a death grip going, which absolutely WILL result in injuries. The proper way to do it to curve your fingers so that the meat of the pad of the fingertips hit the strings, keep the palm completely off the neck, and use the thumb to balance your hand and apply just enough pressure to be able to fret the neck, and no more.

So I stand totally 100% behind my original assessment that Fergie is spreading at the very least inaccurate info about good technique, and potentially dangerous information. Fergie, again, I know your intentions are good, but putting this forth as good technique is wrong. There's not even anything to debate. Your explanations are wrong, your conclusions are based on irrelevant info, your LH technique is awful, and you will not get any academically skilled bassist to say that it's right. I would suggest you stop putting this stuff out there before someone actually gets the idea that you know what you're doing. And I'm not saying that to be mean...I'm saying it to stop people from getting injured.

 

[Pacman]

This is not a whim or just a random idea it has been studied and researched by me for over 15 years and the conclusions are mine. I have only just recently finished it all, as much as i can do so it needs to be put out there so look at it objectivly rather than personaly, you will be suprised how many of the positions you have in your own playing.

I think it's dangerous for someone with no medical training to publish "research" conclusions in this way. What you're talking about seems to me to be anecdotal, and not based on a research sample. I would be very careful about how I presented it.

 

[JimmyM]

I think it's dangerous for someone with no medical training to publish "research" conclusions in this way. What you're talking about seems to me to be anecdotal, and not based on a research sample. I would be very careful about how I presented it.

I wouldn't present it at all. The proper technique has been established for decades now. It's all very potentially dangerous to spread this inaccurate info, and what's worse, is I don't think he's grasping just how wrong it is to do so. It's an uninformed opinion by someone with no medical or formal bass-playing education, period. Nothing to debate about.

Sweet looking bass, though....DROOOOOOOOOOL!!!!

 

[Pacman]

I wouldn't present it at all. The proper technique has been established for decades now. It's all very potentially dangerous to spread this inaccurate info, and what's worse, is I don't think he's grasping just how wrong it is to do so. It's an uninformed opinion by someone with no medical or formal bass-playing education, period. Nothing to debate about.

I was trying for diplomacy...but yeah, can't argue with that.

 

[onlyclave]

A lot of this thread seem to be about the best way to pinch the neck between your thumb and fingers, but in my experience playing double bass that couldn't be further from the truth. When playing DB standing up I tend to lean forward slightly and let the weight of the bass help in stopping the notes. When I play sitting I let the weight of my arm hanging down help stop the notes. My thumb on the back of the neck is very relaxed and is really on there so I can feel where I am laterally on the neck. If you pinched the neck of a DB you hand would get tired very quickly, your vibrato wouldn't work and your notes just sound tight and choked.

A good way to see how much your and choking the neck with your left hand on your electric bass is to play some two octave scales with your left thumb removed from the back of the neck. Lift it up a half inch off of the neck and you'll see that you need to pull the neck of the bass back while cantilevering it off of your stomach. Notice that you are using some large muscle groups in the back of your shoulder. Now if you put your thumb back on to the back of the neck, it should glide lightly over it just enough to let you feel the back of the neck as a roadmap. No neck-pinching required.

Edit: See example