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Why for you thumb position.. not where
- Thread starter Fergie Fulton
- Start date
Thanks for the replys sounding good, passion in there i see and a few different views.
To all the tin can analogy has no place in bass playing it was used to highlight the other analogy that was used the one about grabing a cup or beer bottle that was posted eary in this thread.
The thumb over the top is restrictive and thats all. I can find no medical evidence or have talking to any profesiona medical profesionall that says otherwise. If you do know something send me the link, thats why i posted the thread
As for the pictures in my links, read what is there and understand what is being said before posting. Some it seems think i have a death grip on my neck in my fretting hand, not so trust me. What you see is motion stopped. As for the photos with the palms up it is to let you see how your limbs work.
As for your hands never being in a palms up position, most bass guitarists i have seen always have their fretting hand in this position.
As for the thumb in the fretting hand not being neutral, think on this
IF YOUR NATURAL THUMB POSTION IS TO POINT TO THE OUTSIDE OF THE FOREFINGER THEN BY PUTTING BEHIND IT YOU ARE INDEED TAKING IT AWAY FROM WHERE IT SHOULD NATURALY BE.
In other words if your thumb does not sit in front of your forefinger you must be putting it there.
Relax your hand and put it on the neck and close it gently. The position most have is of the thumb pointing down the neck. If you can move it towards the forefinger and have to tension or strain you can certainly move it there other way with the same results.
As for medical knowledge let me say that i arrive at this point in my life with these findings with time on my hands to conclude them and so pass them about for scrutiney as the result of a car smash which broke my neck at C7 which left me paralised in my right arm with severe nerve and muscle damage.
I am now recovering, but in the last 9 months i have talked to and demonstrated what i have written about and shown it to top medical profesionals treating me with none saying it would be detrimental, rather the opposite. In the right situation, and that is the problem as i see it, it is preferable. As stated in my situation as a blues player...preferable.
This is not a right or wrong thing as the thumb over the top shows, we all have different length thumbs, so why should someone with a long thumb struggle and risk injury to stop it coming over the top because that is the "proper" way.
Remember this is something to consider. Consider means "has it relevence to me" I never say this is fact your reading that in to it because you thats what you see. The only thing i say is fact is there are wrong ways. Here's the link again
Link Removed
To all the tin can analogy has no place in bass playing it was used to highlight the other analogy that was used the one about grabing a cup or beer bottle that was posted eary in this thread.
The thumb over the top is restrictive and thats all. I can find no medical evidence or have talking to any profesiona medical profesionall that says otherwise. If you do know something send me the link, thats why i posted the thread
As for the pictures in my links, read what is there and understand what is being said before posting. Some it seems think i have a death grip on my neck in my fretting hand, not so trust me. What you see is motion stopped. As for the photos with the palms up it is to let you see how your limbs work.
As for your hands never being in a palms up position, most bass guitarists i have seen always have their fretting hand in this position.
As for the thumb in the fretting hand not being neutral, think on this
IF YOUR NATURAL THUMB POSTION IS TO POINT TO THE OUTSIDE OF THE FOREFINGER THEN BY PUTTING BEHIND IT YOU ARE INDEED TAKING IT AWAY FROM WHERE IT SHOULD NATURALY BE.
In other words if your thumb does not sit in front of your forefinger you must be putting it there.
Relax your hand and put it on the neck and close it gently. The position most have is of the thumb pointing down the neck. If you can move it towards the forefinger and have to tension or strain you can certainly move it there other way with the same results.
As for medical knowledge let me say that i arrive at this point in my life with these findings with time on my hands to conclude them and so pass them about for scrutiney as the result of a car smash which broke my neck at C7 which left me paralised in my right arm with severe nerve and muscle damage.
I am now recovering, but in the last 9 months i have talked to and demonstrated what i have written about and shown it to top medical profesionals treating me with none saying it would be detrimental, rather the opposite. In the right situation, and that is the problem as i see it, it is preferable. As stated in my situation as a blues player...preferable.
This is not a right or wrong thing as the thumb over the top shows, we all have different length thumbs, so why should someone with a long thumb struggle and risk injury to stop it coming over the top because that is the "proper" way.
Remember this is something to consider. Consider means "has it relevence to me" I never say this is fact your reading that in to it because you thats what you see. The only thing i say is fact is there are wrong ways. Here's the link again
Link Removed
See, that's what I thought you were saying earlier. I disagree with your aproach. The only things that should be touching the neck are the fingers and thumb. The palm shouldn't be resting on the neck.
No problems with what you are saying and this is great debating stuff. I have no wish to see this turn in to an argument, rather a debate on it merits, and i have more questions than answers to this subject, so why should the palm not rest on the neck for you?
There are a few reasons. One is the ability to move around. You mentioned in your article that you can play the E string with your index and middle. Are those the only two fingers? That is counterproductive to playing the entire instrument.
Another reason is economy of motion. It is easier and faster to shift around on the neck when you are making little contact with it. It seems like, with your approach, it would be harder to move around. When I play, I want to be free from the instrument.
The third reason is break angle. The wrist doesn't seem like it can be relaxed when the palm is on the neck. It seems like it would have to be in an unnatural position.
Great stuff, and glad to see you objective, follow this link a see what i am talking about in motion, watch how the thumb on the fretting hand interacts with the fingers in relation to what is being played. This is one example from a fantastic player, i have talked with, i have so many more that i can point to using youtube from players of the calibre of Lee Skalar to Willie Dixon. Make up your own mind. By the way not really my thing but you gotta appreciate the technique.
This technique seems like it could be fine for playing slap on a 4-string.. But I play metal/jazz on a 6-string, I tried it and I find it to be limiting and problematic compared the 'C' shape technique.
Well, we've reached that fine line, then, haven't we?...You know, do you argue with Mark King over proper technique?
There are many players who use unconventional techniques. We're looking at 'proper' technique for the majority of players and playing situations as should be taught by 'educators'---not players. Sure, this guy or that guy gets by and kills it on a nightly basis. But, that isn't the scope of this discussion---at least not for me.
To me, technique is an art form.
There are many players who use unconventional techniques. We're looking at 'proper' technique for the majority of players and playing situations as should be taught by 'educators'---not players. Sure, this guy or that guy gets by and kills it on a nightly basis. But, that isn't the scope of this discussion---at least not for me.
To me, technique is an art form.
Sorry i can offer no insight in to anything other than 4 string basses. Maybe some else can offer opinion on that.
But remember i am not advocating that you change from any one shape like the C shape. Its more like, if you are having problems, try a different approach. So many player say that the thumb over the top is wrong in playing and should be avoided, and the palms should not touch the fretboard for example.
As in my previous answer with the Mark King he shows that to be a myth, but this is just one example and many will post with the very opposite, fair point, but i don't say any one is right or wrong its to objective and need to be applied to the player concerned. Follow this link and tell this man he is wrong for letting his thumb come over the top and his palms touch the fretboard, by the way another i have talked to in passing
To be honest, if Jack Bruce was advocating 'improper' technique to young bassists, I would debate it with him too. I don't think he is untouchable, and I'm sure if you asked him (or these other players) they would tell you that they don't have all the answers.
I think the issue here is not so much your ideals. You are free to use whatever technique you desire. The issue is that there are alot of impressionable people on this site looking for answers, and I honestly feel that the form that you are posting about isn't the best for the majority of bassists. If it works for you, that's great, and I'd love to hear more of your reasoning, but it might be doing some people a disservice to read the article that you posted.
As i have said i have more questions than answers to this topic, and maybe it was the fact i can' post pictures to show better what i do that was part of problem in the OP?
i am not trying to convince anyone about what i say, its a take it or leave matter a far as i'm concernd, but i will take the responsability to answer relevent questions.
As for the young and impressionable we can't hold their hands and lead them through what they believe is being said or not said, understood or missunderstood, all we can do is do is what i am doing now and answer relevent points and let them make up their own minds, trial and error. Hoefully there are player that realise that if you thumb comes over the top it not a problem so don't strive to stop it.
For example there does not seem to be to much debate on the plucking hand positions i show.
If anyone has a problem talk to me and i'll try and sort it out if i can. I say once again this is something to consider.
This is in no way defending what i posted, but as an insight in to why i say what i say. I have had the benifit of great medical supervision in the past months, and talked extensivly about what i have posted. I have used the positions in what i posted since the 80s. Due to a car smash, in which i was a passenger, i broke my neck at C7 and my right hand/arm recieved muscle and nerve damage that left me paralysed in my upper right side as a result. In the months that followed it i had in "remarkable" time using the exercises i incorporate in my daily playing life regained muscle definition and co-ordination back, but the damage in my neck is blocking a full recovery of all my motor functions in my hands. According to the specialists that dealt with me, both hands are fully healthy. The problem i have now is that something in the C7, C8 area of my neck is inhibiting nerve impulses to my arms so i am to have nerve conduction tests carried out, where i will be able to disscuss more of what i posted with that specialist. What i talk about is not just a personal view, it is the views of many profesionals in their fields.
Heres the link to the blog page for anyone joining in here.
Link Removed
Well, if it works for you, that's great. One thing to keep in mind, though, it that the 'profesionals' that you mention aren't bassists, so they may not understand all the mechanics needed to play the bass.
I'd love to debate/discuss this further, but I will be going away for the week with little internet access.
Ah yes, I know what you're thinking...... and I'm thinking it too.
I think it's just plain bad technique period, yes. OTOH, who am I to criticize Louis Johnson, Jimi Hendrix, etc.? Agreed.....
So what I'm going to do here is waffle a bit and say yes you probably aren't going to hurt yourself doing this, but you're going to have a much harder time fretting notes in a facile way than if you use more, what's the word, established technique with the left hand (thumb behind the neck, fingers arched over fingerboard).
Now, I agree on skinning the cat, but not all ways of field-dressing Tigger are equivalent. Some ways are better than other generally due to the simple facts of human anatomy and how our basses are designed and so on.
So I stand by my original comments but will add some weaseling like the above to them. I kind of have to, because LJ is one of my all time bass heros
.Speaking for me personally, my playing is already poor enough when using correct technique. It's several magnitudes worse, tho, when I try the thumb over the fingerboard thing. I can barely get through a major scale as it is, but with the neck firmly in the palm I can hardly play notes at all.
Like I said before, I try to follow the Carole Kaye method on the fretting hand. I think her description and technique is about the best there is for the electric bass for avoiding injury as well as just good technique for playing well in general. That does NOT include the thumb around the fingerboard style.
LS
Well that where i come in, they have all had a good understanding of whats involved, but that again can be subjective to them.
Most agree that the human hand was never designed to do what we are now asking it to do in modern life, and modern life is causing untold pressure to the hand, because of the thumb. It is said the the thumb ("This joint is only 40,000 years old in evolution, in the context of 1.2 million years to 1.8 million years for the hand.") is the culprit in many modern problems in the hand. From using a keyboard, to a playstation type controller, from the rigours of work to the pursuit of pleasure they all will give the thumb something to do it was never intended to do.
Most of this to a modern generation is in the past 15 years.
As players we have seen the prominence of multi stringed basses way beyond the 4 string normality, access to information we never had and the chance to try new and varied techniques and ideas. Part of the problem is its subjective and need to be put into perspective. When i was younger and i first heard Jaco back in about '75' i was blown away i wanted what he could do. When i saw what was involved on the TV one night, i realised i could work on it forever and never do it, we were physicaly different, his hands and fingers were so much longer than mine. Thats the problem whats for one is not for another. Have a good internet free weekend lol.
You know, injury potential aside, just because famous people do something and because it doesn't hurt when you do it doesn't make it the best way to do something. The techniques that enable you to get the most out of your playing have been recognized way longer than any of us have been playing. Can you play if you don't follow these techniques to the letter? Of course you can, as long as they don't hurt. But you'll never find them being taught academically. At the very least, the left hand stuff is not considered good technique at all.
Fergie, sorry to hear about your injury and I'm glad you're still able to play. But rather than try to figure this stuff on your own and drawing erroneous conclusions based on irrelevant info, I highly recommend you spending some time with a bass teacher who has learned academically how to play bass. It truly is the most ergonomic way to do it, and if it wasn't, they wouldn't teach it. In addition, they can also possibly find some workarounds for your condition. Yes, I'm a technique nazi, but only because I've learned proper technique and I know the benefits, and there are many many benefits. You even admit yourself that your left hand technique is restrictive. At this point, the best thing you can do is get some one on one time with an academically trained bass teacher. I guarantee you'll come out of it with increased mobility, speed, and dexterity.
Fergie, sorry to hear about your injury and I'm glad you're still able to play. But rather than try to figure this stuff on your own and drawing erroneous conclusions based on irrelevant info, I highly recommend you spending some time with a bass teacher who has learned academically how to play bass. It truly is the most ergonomic way to do it, and if it wasn't, they wouldn't teach it. In addition, they can also possibly find some workarounds for your condition. Yes, I'm a technique nazi, but only because I've learned proper technique and I know the benefits, and there are many many benefits. You even admit yourself that your left hand technique is restrictive. At this point, the best thing you can do is get some one on one time with an academically trained bass teacher. I guarantee you'll come out of it with increased mobility, speed, and dexterity.
Thanks Jimmy as usual i love you passion but i feel you are misguided as far as i am concerend. My friend you know nothing about me, my music education, my career, how much mobility, speed, and dexterity i have, yet you believe you can improve me. What give the impression that i am unhappy with my playing life? What give the impression that in the world of Blues music i am not equiped to do the job?
Please don't take this the wrong way but your talking to me like i am a a sub standard player and i need all the things you list to complete me. Sorry but i don't.
I don't think you're a substandard player at all. I have no idea what kind of a player you are and for all I know you can smoke me. But what I DO know is proper technique. I know the easiest and most efficient ways of getting from point A to point B with your playing. You won't always see me use them on a gig because I might get a little lazy when the song isn't very demanding, but more often than not I strive for good and proper technique. And if you're going to submit a blog on proper technique where I can read it and I see things that are wrong or irrelevant, I'm going to point out its flaws and explain to you as best as I can where the flaws are and why they're flaws. There's enough misinformation on the web without adding to it. And as you can see, I'm not the only one in this thread who feels that way. I'm just the one who's protesting the loudest because I am a much bigger technique nazi than most. That's because I've seen the improvements it's caused in my own playing.
It has nothing to do with what I think of you as a player. It has everything to do with what I've learned and what is taught as proper technique.
EDIT: BTW, I would sincerly like to apologize if I came across as belittling you and your skill level. I honestly like you and I know you think I'm being an a-hole and I don't like that you feel that way. But honestly, after re-reading this thread, I really don't think you're getting how serious it is. Do you really want someone to have a crippling injury because of an incorrect conclusion you came to? I don't think you do. You seem like a very good guy and you really want to help people. But you're presenting your blog as proper technique as described by an expert who's done 15 years of research on it, but you don't present any research whatsoever, nor make any claims of any schooling that would give your research any credibility. Like it or not, that's extremely important when you present yourself as an expert who's done extensive research.
But you have put a lot of thought and work into it, so your research is not in vain. But it's incomplete. What you should do at this point is go through what the top scholars at Berklee, Musician's Institute, and all the other music schools in the world present as proper technique from an ergonomic and medical standpoint (it's pretty well agreed on at this point except for the finer points like playing hard vs. soft, raking vs. strict alternation, things like that), and try to find the holes in the logic. It's all available on the web. And if you see any holes, then by all means, point them out and present logical arguments that make sense as they're applied to bass playing and that hold up to scrutiny.
Hi Jimmy, far from thinking your an A- hole, its the opposite i love your passion and wish i could meet more people with it.
No apoligy neccesary, i can handle a bad review. LOL
I presented this thread as something to consider. i present it as bare fact, which means it runs more deeply than you read and should be investigated more.
I see no point in presenting what i have done to any music school whatever their reputation, as it deals with the hands and thumbs from a medical point of view, which i have applied to bass guitar. As a player of over 35 years experience i think that qualifys me to do so.
I also point out that this needs to be case specific, so consult a medical profesional.
I have posted new threads with ammendments and links to the original which clearly states its intent.
You only see the hand from a players point of view, by that i mean i use my hands for more than just playing so i have to consider the impact they have in my life. The fact i play bass guitar is one of these facts.
If you have time check out the works and postings of top hand surgeon Dr David Markison. Also the works and postings of the equally brilliant Dr Ian Winspur, whos book The Musicians Hand is a facinating read on problems, injuries and cases from musicians of all types. Its an expensive book and bass guitar is not mentioned specificly, but i has so much documented cases from classicaly trained and taught musicians who have developed problems through their technique.
As for injury i would take the advice and information i have been given from the medical specalists i have, seen and spoken to over any music school or teacher. Which is a good point if you want to prevent injury then stop all posts on TB about pain, stiffness and other injury related points, because its not case specific, and thats the point with all injuries being case specific, as it seem to me the advice that is being posted may well cause more harm than good.
The bottom line is if you have pain, see a medical specialist, doctor, physio, etc.
The difference in us Jimmy, as i see it is that you believe you know better, your presenting your case to me as correct based on your personal experience, and the belief that because it has been taught that way for years, the best schools teach it, it must be right. I present that its "something to be considered", and that in my mind, that was clear, and the more it is questioned the more i can ammend the ways its presented so it becomes clearer. I am not a writer but i am learning that context in writing is everything, and the things i never grasped in school from my English teachers are kicking my ar*e these days as i try and articulate what i am saying LOL.
If what i am saying is wrong and dangerous point me to the sources that say so. I have found no such source with any credability, and thats in the last 15 years. You have had a couple of days of this and you seem believe you have all my answers.
The one thing i have learned from life is whats correct today may not be correct tomorrow, and whats wrong today may be right tomorrow. History shows us that Jimmy, and thats why i offer it as something "to consider".
If you keep questioning me on relevent points i will look for answers Jimmy.
For anybody taging on the end here's the link to the blog again
Link Removed
Its just occured to me as i post the link, maybe this OP needs removed and re-presented. I can present my side and you Jimmy can present your side and let all have a balanced discussion?
No apoligy neccesary, i can handle a bad review. LOL
I presented this thread as something to consider. i present it as bare fact, which means it runs more deeply than you read and should be investigated more.
I see no point in presenting what i have done to any music school whatever their reputation, as it deals with the hands and thumbs from a medical point of view, which i have applied to bass guitar. As a player of over 35 years experience i think that qualifys me to do so.
I also point out that this needs to be case specific, so consult a medical profesional.
I have posted new threads with ammendments and links to the original which clearly states its intent.
You only see the hand from a players point of view, by that i mean i use my hands for more than just playing so i have to consider the impact they have in my life. The fact i play bass guitar is one of these facts.
If you have time check out the works and postings of top hand surgeon Dr David Markison. Also the works and postings of the equally brilliant Dr Ian Winspur, whos book The Musicians Hand is a facinating read on problems, injuries and cases from musicians of all types. Its an expensive book and bass guitar is not mentioned specificly, but i has so much documented cases from classicaly trained and taught musicians who have developed problems through their technique.
As for injury i would take the advice and information i have been given from the medical specalists i have, seen and spoken to over any music school or teacher. Which is a good point if you want to prevent injury then stop all posts on TB about pain, stiffness and other injury related points, because its not case specific, and thats the point with all injuries being case specific, as it seem to me the advice that is being posted may well cause more harm than good.
The bottom line is if you have pain, see a medical specialist, doctor, physio, etc.
The difference in us Jimmy, as i see it is that you believe you know better, your presenting your case to me as correct based on your personal experience, and the belief that because it has been taught that way for years, the best schools teach it, it must be right. I present that its "something to be considered", and that in my mind, that was clear, and the more it is questioned the more i can ammend the ways its presented so it becomes clearer. I am not a writer but i am learning that context in writing is everything, and the things i never grasped in school from my English teachers are kicking my ar*e these days as i try and articulate what i am saying LOL.
If what i am saying is wrong and dangerous point me to the sources that say so. I have found no such source with any credability, and thats in the last 15 years. You have had a couple of days of this and you seem believe you have all my answers.
The one thing i have learned from life is whats correct today may not be correct tomorrow, and whats wrong today may be right tomorrow. History shows us that Jimmy, and thats why i offer it as something "to consider".
If you keep questioning me on relevent points i will look for answers Jimmy.
For anybody taging on the end here's the link to the blog again
Link Removed
Its just occured to me as i post the link, maybe this OP needs removed and re-presented. I can present my side and you Jimmy can present your side and let all have a balanced discussion?
