Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

[jking138]

From playing gigs and watching many more, bass is by far the easiest to get wrong.

The amount of bassists I see with smiley face EQs to sound METAL or all treble no bass to sound PUNK and it sounds awful. What can the sound guy do with that? I can see why they do it sometimes with bassist that have no idea. All the sound guys I've met have been more then willing if you display that you have an idea about tone.

I'm just saying that if the guy works there he probably has a good idea about how the room works and that sometimes the bassist are at fault. This does apply only to sound guys who know what they are doing and genuinely trying to do the best for the sound.

 

[squeezer]

Yes, you've made your point. It's unfair that we don't get the same treatment as guitar players. Same-sex marriage will be universally accepted before bass players get the same respect as guitar players.

Now, given that we're going to be given short shrift by sound men, what strategy makes sense for ensuring that what the audience hears is close to what you'd like them to hear?

Don't mic up a cabinet ;-)

 

[squeezer]

From playing gigs and watching many more, bass is by far the easiest to get wrong.

The amount of bassists I see with smiley face EQs to sound METAL or all treble no bass to sound PUNK and it sounds awful. What can the sound guy do with that? I can see why they do it sometimes with bassist that have no idea. All the sound guys I've met have been more then willing if you display that you have an idea about tone.

I'm just saying that if the guy works there he probably has a good idea about how the room works and that sometimes the bassist are at fault. This does apply only to sound guys who know what they are doing and genuinely trying to do the best for the sound.

You think bass is the easiest to get wrong -- you should try fiddle...

 

[Marcus Willett]

...if you go the simulator/effects/DI/flat monitor route, a DI *is* all that should be needed to get your "perfect sound"

Ironically I've never said I insist on, or even prefer a mic. I just defend the practice. It's true that with modern tech, we can get some pretty good results sans cab. It's the soundmen that are convinced that the right bass tone needs to be straight from the jack that are the problem.

Yes, you've made your point. It's unfair...given that we're going to be given short shrift by sound men, what strategy makes sense...

Given the enormous sea change with gay marriage in the last few years (your reference) I'd suggest a similar tactic of not accepting the status quo, fighting to change it and stepping up and demanding equal treatment. Seems an effective tactic, nothing gets better otherwise.

 

[DaveSill]

From playing gigs and watching many more, bass is by far the easiest to get wrong.

Wrong in whose opinion? Sound guys and audience members can second guess the performers, but if the "wrong" sound is what the performer wants, then it's the right sound.

The sound guy can say "Hey, your bass sounds really thin/boomy/etc. Is that what you want?", but he shouldn't silently try to "fix" it.

 

[squeezer]

Wrong in whose opinion? Sound guys and audience members can second guess the performers, but if the "wrong" sound is what the performer wants, then it's the right sound.

The sound guy can say "Hey, your bass sounds really thin/boomy/etc. Is that what you want?", but he shouldn't silently try to "fix" it.

I also can't believe that so many bass players want their instruments to sound that bad in so many different ways...

With cabinets and mics I always walk over to the stage and listen from where the musician is playing from and aim for FOH to sound broadly similar. Funnily enough I often have to use a lot of EQ to achieve this...

 

[Marcus Willett]

I also can't believe that so many bass players want their instruments to sound that bad in so many different ways...

See? That's it right there. Bad according to who? What you don't like isn't bad because you don't like it.

Pitch is objective. So is time. Tone is not, it is subjective, and your post is a perfect example of why we have this problem and issue. It's bad to you. It's not bad empirically.

I've heard many, many bass players with what I would call a bad sound, but they are playing on million selling albums or sold out concerts. So what does that judgment of mine (or yours) ultimately mean? It's nothing more than an opinion, that's all.

 

[squeezer]

See? That's it right there. Bad according to who? What you don't like isn't bad because you don't like it.

Pitch is objective. So is time. Tone is not, it is subjective, and your post is a perfect example of why we have this problem and issue. It's bad to you. It's not bad empirically.

Did you read the second line of my post?

There's tone -- which is as you say a personal choice -- and there's having sound problems like some notes disappearing almost completely and others shaking the hall, or trying to feed back through FOH, or being muddy and inaudible over other instruments and vocals. I'm 99% sure that this is *not* what the bass player intended, I'd say this is bad sound, and it usually happens with cabinets and mics not DI.

 

[Marcus Willett]

Did you read the second line of my post?

There's tone -- which is as you say a personal choice -- and there's having sound problems like some notes disappearing almost completely and others shaking the hall, or trying to feed back through FOH, or being muddy and inaudible over other instruments and vocals. I'm 99% sure that this is *not* what the bass player intended, I'd say this is bad sound, and it usually happens with cabinets and mics not DI.

Sure it's uneven sound, that's why boards are equipped with EQ to address these problems. That's a separate issue from recreating versus creating a tone. If my tone is uneven onstage, yeah that's a problem. If its not, then you use whatever EQ is needed to address that in the house. Recreating vs creating.

Again, all of this is presented by guitar players all the time and just accepted as part of the cost of doing business. But with bass players, they're just being difficult or ignorant.

 

[squeezer]

Wrong in whose opinion? Sound guys and audience members can second guess the performers, but if the "wrong" sound is what the performer wants, then it's the right sound.

The sound guy can say "Hey, your bass sounds really thin/boomy/etc. Is that what you want?", but he shouldn't silently try to "fix" it.

I was at a festival sound-check some years ago where another soundman was setting up a double bass -- he'd got it all clean sounding with lots of bottom end down to 30Hz or so, but it didn't sound at all like a double bass.

When the musician complained about this (especially the thunderous low bass and no warmth) the soundman started on about how his rig was flat down to 30Hz and the bass sounded fantastically clean and he knew what it should sound like, and a raging argument ensued.

All he had to do was walk over to the stage and listen to the instrument -- not even any cabinet to worry about here! -- and it should have been obvious that the musician was right and he was wrong, but he refused to even do this...

 

[Marcus Willett]

-- and there's having sound problems like some notes disappearing almost completely and others shaking the hall, or trying to feed back through FOH, or being muddy and inaudible over other instruments and vocals. I'm 99% sure that this is *not* what the bass player intended, I'd say this is bad sound...

Just curious (seriously).

So if you were tasked with FOH for a world class jazz trio, and the bassist was playing upright with no pickup, what happens? Well you'd probably have to mic him right? OK what about all the problems that presents? Do you just tell him "sorry, there's just no way I can get your sound in the house. It's just too uneven and boomy out front, it's just gonna sound bad"

Or do you...because you are forced to and there is no other choice....work with him on tone and mic position and EQ and whatever it takes to reproduce his sound in the house?

 

[squeezer]

Sure it's uneven sound, that's why boards are equipped with EQ to address these problems. That's a separate issue from recreating versus creating a tone. If my tone is uneven onstage, yeah that's a problem. If its not, then you use whatever EQ is needed to address that in the house. Recreating vs creating.

Again, all of this is presented by guitar players all the time and just accepted as part of the cost of doing business. But with bass players, they're just being difficult or ignorant.

If you think all these cab/mic problems can be fixed with EQ I'd suggest you've never had to try and do it in a bad case ;-)

(fixing cancellation dips with EQ boost is usually a feedback-creating disaster, and fixing resonant peaks with notches rarely works well even given multiband parametric EQ, which few desks have and even fewer soundmen know how to use)

 

[Marcus Willett]

I was at a festival sound-check some years ago where another soundman was setting up a double bass -- he'd got it all clean sounding with lots of bottom end down to 30Hz or so, but it didn't sound at all like a double bass...Iit should have been obvious that the musician was right and he was wrong, but he refused to even do this...

Great post, except I think you missed the real lesson here.

They were both right.

The soundman though it sounded good. To him it was, so as far as he is concerned, he's right. To him.

The bassist had the opposite opinion. He was also right. For him.

Since the soundmans job is to REproduce what is happening on stage (given limitations) his idea of what is right is secondary to the one producing the sound in the first place.

If this were not true, it would be perfectly acceptable for the soundman to ask the bassist to change his hand position or strings, or anything else to get closer to what the soundman thinks is right.

 

[JimmyM]

You don't have to repeat yourself. You've made your point and people either get it or don't.

If they can keep repeating the myth that you can't get your amp sound in the PA with a good mic, then I will keep busting that myth.

I'm not special...I don't do anything else any other bass player couldn't do...I just did a little homework and clue the soundman in on what I want. But let's say this myth is true...so what? Unless you bring a super duper DI like I do, for most bass players who like micing, it still sounds a hell of a lot better than a Radial or Countryman, and it sounds a million times better than the POS DI you usually see on multi-act shows in bars.

 

[lfmn16]

Since the soundmans job is to REproduce what is happening on stage (given limitations) his idea of what is right is secondary to the one producing the sound in the first place.

This is just so simple, and yet this is the point I have yet to see a soundman concede.

 

[squeezer]

Just curious (seriously).

So if you were tasked with FOH for a world class jazz trio, and the bassist was playing upright with no pickup, what happens? Well you'd probably have to mic him right? OK what about all the problems that presents? Do you just tell him "sorry, there's just no way I can get your sound in the house. It's just too uneven and boomy out front, it's just gonna sound bad"

Or do you...because you are forced to and there is no other choice....work with him on tone and mic position and EQ and whatever it takes to reproduce his sound in the house?

I've done exactly that. And it's really not easy, the sound varies hugely with mic position, the instruments have nice resonant bodies prone to feedback, the best sound (like in a studio) is with the mic some way back to blend all the sounds but you can't do this on stage because of feedback and stage wash, but with a close mic the tonal balance is all wrong so you have to use a lot of EQ, if they want foldback it's a nightmare-- how long a list would you like?

Yes you can make it work but it's difficult even if you know how the instrument works, and the sound is 100% reliant on the soundman knowing what he's doing (see post about festival PA). I think I did quite a good job, I'm sure others with more experience could have done better -- and I'm equally sure many would have done far worse.

Acoustic double basses are difficult to work with. I'd prefer to avoid many of the same issues occuring with electric basses/mics/cabinets, why make everything more difficult than it has to be?

(not just trying to avoid setup effort/time, but also wanting to deliver a better FOH sound to the audience -- where "better" means "what the musician wants it to sound like")

 

[JimmyM]

Well I guess upright players should just switch to electric.

 

[Jeff Scott]

(fixing cancellation dips with EQ boost is usually a feedback-creating disaster, and fixing resonant peaks with notches rarely works well even given multiband parametric EQ, which few desks have and even fewer soundmen know how to use)

Isn't part of this issue of trying to EQ peak and dips caused by room modes pretty futile since they vary/change throughout a room, with the peaks and dips occurring in different places along the frequency spectrum? I would think the best one can do is get some sort of average, this of course, assumes the sound person actually makes the effort to measure/listen while walking around to different spots in the venue vs. the usual "just make it sound good at the console" way it is usually done at smaller than big budget shows.

 

[squeezer]

Great post, except I think you missed the real lesson here.

They were both right.

The soundman though it sounded good. To him it was, so as far as he is concerned, he's right. To him.

The bassist had the opposite opinion. He was also right. For him.

Since the soundmans job is to REproduce what is happening on stage (given limitations) his idea of what is right is secondary to the one producing the sound in the first place.

If this were not true, it would be perfectly acceptable for the soundman to ask the bassist to change his hand position or strings, or anything else to get closer to what the soundman thinks is right.

I don't get your point. Are you now saying that the soundman should override what the musician/band wants to sound like, or in this case even what the instrument itself sounds like? That's dangerous ground...

Surely his job is to deliver the sound and balance that the band wants? If they want knarly grungy bass (as on-stage) that's what should appear out front, ditto if it's thick reggae bass or clean jazz bass.

Moving mics or changing stage layout yes, but suggesting the musician changes the way they play the instrument? Maybe if the soundman was an instrument teacher ten years earlier...

 

[squeezer]

Well I guess upright players should just switch to electric.

Only if they could get the same sound... ;-)