Double Bass Why hire a teacher?

[Tom Lane]

It's an automatic retort on TB to get a teacher. I've done my part for newbies and given them the same advice many times and for a beginner on the upright, I think it's a no-brainer - the upright can cripple you if you don't learn proper technique, assuming you aspire to more than root-5 below C on the G, and it's the extremely rare beginning student who can learn proper technique without a live teacher for... months? Years?

My question is a bit different. I think I've noticed a correlation recently between those that have had a lot of instruction from those that have not. Most of the time, those that have not have poor tone, poor intonation, incorrectly executed ideas, and inappropriate statements, actually, regardless of the instrument. Saxophonists with weak diaphram and intonation. Guitarists who shred mercilessly, drummers sans steady beat, pianists whose scale runs run over the measure, etc.

I recently came across a well-developed, extremely musical jazz bassist who appeared to have few lessons on the upright because he had an extremely idiosyncratic approach. His approach wasn't bad. I was told that he used to be a pro in Chicago before moving to LA in his late 30s and getting a day job. His tone was pretty good - could have been better, IMO. Lots of two fingers a bit too high on the neck for my taste. Still, he pulled a fairly commanding tone. He's a very well-developed jazz bassist with huge ears. Sings all of his basslines to very appropriate effect. His downfall, IMO, was that he fell back on specific harmonic movements whether they were appropriate or not, and more than occasionally, his intonation was painful. Wincingly inappropriate.

Do you think that's accurate? That there is a correlation between mediocre to poor playing and the lack of a teacher? In my own personal case, I've had many teachers, as a beginner and as an intermediate player and found good teachers extremely valuable at my different levels. As a beginner, I learned some good basic technique from my classical teacher. As an intermediate player, I learned what grand tone, spot-on time and how moving the time affects the band, near-perfect intonation, brilliant arco, and appropriate listening provide me with an interaction I didn't know possible when I started.

Do we all need great teachers forever?

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Do we all need great teachers forever?

The better you become at learning the less you need formal study with a teacher. I certainly don't think the standard "get a teacher" line ever hurts someone but a person who doesn't eventually figure out that we're all fundamentally self taught and doesn't start moving towards "writing his own book" won't amount to much.

 

[Carl Hillman]

I think part of what any good teacher will teach you is how to teach yourself. Once you've taken a critical mass of lessons, you should know what is physically necessary to play and how to take on and learn a new piece of music.

But, there are things a teacher can supply that you can't, an objective ear being one. Also, when you do not have a lot of playing experience there are all kinds of subtleties in phrasing, dynamics, and tone when interpreting something that you may never even consider.

As far as no teacher=poor playing goes, that's probably a little too general. On one hand, a player who has never taken lessons is more likely to be deficient in his "blind spots" (things he needs to work on that he doesn't know he needs to work on). On the other hand, teachers don't do the actual shedding for you. You could take lessons from the greatest pedagogue around, but if you don't practice, you're not going to get better.

 

[sean_on_bass]

I think, statistically, you are going to find players that had a teacher and put in the effort better players than those that simply winged it the whole time. On the flip side, i've seen some players that had teachers the whole time, that have trouble thinking for themselves in what they want to play. A friend of mine, for example, has only ever been taught, and has rarely if ever gone outside of those teachings to discover his own concepts. As a result, you can watch him play and he looks very stiff and uncomfortable. He's too scared of hitting "wrong" notes, and as a result sounds very squelched and without feeling. He can't seem to "just play" without working out some sort of equation in his head.

I, on the other hand, am primarily self taught on multiple instruments, but that's not to say i've not had some formal lessons over my lifetime. These were in the form of high school band class, a college theory course, attending some piano lessons with my piano player, and whatever i can find on the internet. I am very comfortable just playing and experimenting, taking risks and trying new things. I actually get excited while playing, sometimes to my own detriment. As a result i feel i express more interesting and personal ideas, but my consistency suffers from the lack of formal training. In the back of my mind i know what i need to work on, but its sometimes hard to motivate yourself to do something without another person holding you accountable.

One must consider that the information environment is much different today than it used to be. While before you were relegated to physical teachers, recordings, and books, you now have youtube videos, skype lessons, countless online articles, pictures, forums etc. Many more avenues to find information on how to play. I think that anyone serious about learning should utilize all of these things. A teacher is important, but so is doing your own research and developing your own ideas. When you work out your own solution, you tend to retain that information and have enhanced understanding.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

The better you become at learning the less you need formal study with a teacher.

Tell that to Rufus Reid...

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Sorry, my response is gonna be long, esp since his is a sensitive subject as there are obviously lots of teachers on this forum.

It's obviously a personal and on a case by case basis. Some people simply are able to do the research on their own. Most people can't - most people have a hard time asking the right questions much less even begin to find the right answers themselves. This starts going into other areas not related to music.
* What is my musical goal?
* What do I enjoy playing? Do I want to focus specifically on it?
* How much of my life am I willing to sacrifice to attain the above goal?

Add to this the fact there is money (a teacher needs to eat) and ego involved, it becomes a hard question to pose.

I've had my complaints with teachers in the past in general, and it all depends on the particular person. Examples:
* Teachers gotta eat. They want you to come back for lessons even if you're not really ready for your next musical concept.
* Everybody has an inherent bias. The teachers way is the best (why would you go to them if you didn't want to their way of doing things?). This becomes a problem when you begin to realize that how they teach isn't fulfilling your needs.
* Teachers can have egos. My wife stopped playing music at an early age because it was all about satifying the teacher's ego. She got turned off when she burned out on trying to make the teacher happy. Other teachers can use their method as a way to justify their own personal approach.
* Teachers teaching the wrong stuff? Barry Harris has a fascinating opinion on how jazz is taught. It's all on YouTube. Gary Bartz saying what is being taught is backwards? One of my friends that i play with spent years unlearning everything he picked up as an undergrad in jazz piano at one of the colleges here. He went to Dick Hindman for several years and completely changed the way he approached everything.
* Students themselves can be problematic. Some don't have the discipline to practice or learn things on their own. They need to pay someone else money to make the practice. This is like an out-of-shape person buying a gym membership for their New Years Resolution.

With the above in mind, finding the "right" teacher can be fairly difficult combined with where you live.

OTOH, if you're going to self teach, you should be able to answer some very specific questions and know exactly what your goals are. Not only that, you need a certain combinations of things: self-awareness, discipline, honesty about what they want, etc. Combine that with who they are, what their life experience has been, and their temperament.

That said, I think for 95% of the people out there, they're better off with teachers. If you can't define exactly what your musical goal is - down the style, the manner of playing, and how it can be done, you're better off with guidance.

Myownself, I dont' depend on music for a living. It's become a practice to keep me sane. I stopped taking regular lessons years ago and only do camps and clinics now. I get the most of teachers this way - I feel like I'm a musical ascetic. Give me a concept and I'll run off into the woods for a few months to meditate over it.

The reason is that I approach my music in the manner of a research topic and I have a particular approach/theory I'm trying to validate and develop. I'm very specific about my goals (playing in trios or duos) and have decided to focus solely on pizz playing (arco is a whole other instrument and I dont' have time to do it justice). There's some other areas I'm dabbling in and will want a teachers opinion but I'm enjoying the adventure of discovering things for myself. I think the last part matters most.

So far so good.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Tell that to Rufus Reid...

Good example of a guy who has written his own book and still studies with a teacher. Nothing is mutually exclusive here. After 40 years I have a reasonable handle on the learning process and now I'm looking for a teacher to help make the transition from the German to French bow. If there's information you don't have the quickest way to get that information is to ask someone who does. What I don't think I'll ever get good enough at to make formal study obsolete is accurate self criticism. How can you criticize what you don't know yet?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

This subject is always a can of worms. I've had some amazing teachers through the years, on various instruments and in various disciplines, and I think it all flows together in the end. When I'm struggling with something I'll go ask someone who seems to have a better handle on it than I do and then take the lessons I learned from that person and run with them until I get stuck again. When retirement time comes (god willing and the creek don't rise), I plan to devote a lot of time to the bow, and I already know that I'll be looking for a stick '0 pain mentor at that point. The learning never ends.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

If there's information you don't have the quickest way to get that information is to ask someone who does. What I don't think I'll ever get good enough at to make formal study obsolete is accurate self criticism. How can you criticize what you don't know yet?

Of course you can't question what you're not aware of. But I think this is where there may be a new definition or way of teachers to help students. By being a mirror for them and pointing out something they're not seeing in themselves. This is different than being a source of authority, which is how I think teachers generally behave or led to behave.

This is why I do go to clinics and camps and such still. So I can get an external opinion and then figure out if I agree or not with said opinion. I suppose if you have really capable musicians you play with, you can get the critique from them. You don't neccessarily have to go the route of conventional teaching to get that feedback.

It's like getting therapy: the therapist doesn't solve your problem, they help you figure it out for yourself.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

I think a lot of it depends on your satisfaction with what you know and your ability to externalize through the instrument your own internal music. My entire life I've assumed the "eternal student" posture with the given that there would always be more to learn than there was time for. Lately though in trying to define a personal distinction between Jeff Bonny the student musician and Jeff Bonny the adult musician the question has arisen of pursuing new things vs refining and simply continuing to work to hone a finer edge on what I already know well. Honestly I don't think I'm completely ready to give up being a student, there's simply too much of interest that I don't have satisfactory command of. What I seem to be wrestling with is maintaining the open highly flexible "beginners mind" but not getting stuck a student never realizing myself as a fully formed adult musician.

I have met several older very accomplished players who have told me they don't practice anymore or if they do it's "on the bandstand". This seems a perfectly valid place to come to after decades of focused effort. I know of others who practiced every day their whole lives. There's a strong temptation to look to this player or that for justification and validation but at some point you really do have to write your own book.

 

[John Goldsby]

I think the answer is not the same for everyone. Different student-teacher pairs have varied levels of success. I had about a year of classical bass lessons from Dan Spurlock when I was 17 or so. I took electric bass lessons from Jeff Sherman (a Louisville guitarist) for a couple of years (one year at a "jazz college") before I gave up on the college scene and just practiced and played gigs and sessions, every day—hours and hours. I did a few week-long workshops when I was young with Rufus Reid, Wayne Darling, and Ron McClure. When I moved to NYC, I studied intermittently with Michael Moore and Dave Holland—probably a total of about 12 lessons from each of those gentlemen, spread out over a few years. I also hung around the Barry Harris weekly workshop for about a year or so. I went to an afternoon workshop at Julliard with Ludwig Streicher (snuck in liked I owned the place), because he pioneered the bow technique that I was learning from Michael Moore. I was very inspired by Streicher (even though I'm a "jazz guy"), so I got all of his method books, and a couple of his recordings.

I spent months playing along with his recording of the Sperger concerto in D. I didn't have a teacher to coach me through this, I was just trying to match the sound of the record, remember what Streicher himself had said and done, and use the stuff I had picked up from Michael Moore. This was in addition to my daily life playing jazz gigs, and emulating Paul Chambers, Ron Carter, and Red Mitchell.

This is a drawn out way of saying: the student has to "want it." I think a student has to be motivated to learn something, and the teacher also has to be able to take the student at the exact level where they are, and give them something inspiring. Too hard, the student will be frustrated. Too easy, the student will be bored.

My favorite students are the ones who show up and say: I've got this tune I want to play for you. I transcribed this solo from so-and-so. I listened to this thing you played on—what are you doing there? I want to sound more like so-and-so . . . can you give me some guidance?

A teacher can offer some guidance, technique and repertoire suggestions if a player needs a jump start. If a player is unsure about what to do next with a practice routine, a teacher can really help. For the players who are going to play hours and hours every day and keep trying to learn everything under the sun, then a meeting with a teacher every once in awhile can also be inspiring—but those players will get better regardless. I talk about this in my "Jazz Bowing Techniques for the Improvising Bassist" book, and also in "The Jazz Bass Book." One of the things I say in the Jazz Bass Book is that you should write your own book—you decide how you want to sound, and you practice the things necessary to sound like that. Like jeffbonny says:

. . . at some point you really do have to write your own book.

I still have a student's curiosity, and last year I took a couple of lessons with Yasunori Kawahara, who is the principal of the WDR Symphony Orchestra Cologne—and who happens to live down the road from me.



As you can see and hear, he has incredible technique. At my last lesson, i played "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" with the bow, and spent the next hour or so just working through the piece note-for-note, shift-for-shift, then four bars at a time. Intense, but rewarding.

 

[Bass Stream]

My favorite students are the ones who show up and say: I've got this tune I want to play for you. I transcribed this solo from so-and-so. I listened to this thing you played on—what are you doing there? I want to sound more like so-and-so . . . can you give me some guidance?

At the age of 60 I have decided to learn the electric bass and upright bass. My wife said it would stimulate my mind! Not sure how that is going but I am having a great time with the lessons. I've taken piano and accordion lessons in the past but quickly became bored with the lessons as they didn't seem to fit into my expectations. I really feel an instructor should listen to his student and plan his lessons around that person's particular interest...while still teaching the basics. Most music instruction books seem geared to the younger kids (especially the songs played). Like the post above, my instructor (who is 35 years younger than I am) is working with me on songs I bring in while supplementing this with basic theory and playing skills. I am enjoying it. No more "Pop goes the Weasel". I will never be playing professionally but find this kind of instruction to be motivating and fulfilling.

Bob
Indiana, PA

 

[John Goldsby]

Bob: Thanks fantastic! It sounds like you have a broad idea of what you want to learn — your instructor can guide you in the right direction without wasting time on "Pop Goes The Weasel" or other material that doesn't apply to your situation. I think the challenge for amateur bassists is finding other instrumentalists on about the same level to make music with. That might be something to look into, or ask your instructor about.

 

[Dimmik]

For me, it's matter of not plateauing. I tried to teach myself but at a certain point I found myself unable to go any further. I needed to challenge myself but I didn't know how. Where do I start? And what about using the bow? How do I learn to improvise? I had no idea what to do next. You know you have to get to another level but WHAT level??? So after 6 months of futzing around, I got a teacher and first I had to clear out all the bad techniques I taught myself that never would have allowed me to progress even if I knew what I needed to do next. It's been a battle with myself but slowly it started to come around but it's still a battle, I'm still working on it. Taking lessons has given me a degree of mastery I never could have gotten on my own but it's still nothing when I see what I still need to learn. The point is, with a teacher guiding me, giving up is not an option and neither is "I've learned enough already, I can get by with what I know." With that thought in your head, you start doing what the OP describes--falling back on certain techniques that don't really fit because you never learned anything else or how to manipulate what you do know in different ways. You learned it one way and you figure you can get by with that every single time. Well, you can't. The average Joe may be impressed but real musicians see right through it.

 

[Groove Doctor]

Brilliant question Tom. I think for the bassist you cited earlier - he had glaring weaknesses that would never have been tolerated IF he was in a strict educational (institutional?) context. I, too, find poor intonation like fingernails down a chalkboard, but.... bassists don't hire bassists, that's clearly why he gets the gigs.

There's SOOO many pro singers with sloppy technique, but it's the total package that sells: the looks, confidence, attitude, personality, who they know, etc that made them famous.


Maybe the question could be turned around and stated as:
What do I as a teacher bring to the table?
How am I able to guide this student?
When do I stop being their teacher, and set them on their way?
Knowing what I know now - what would I do the same again, or have done differently, if I was to teach them again?

With time I've shifted my thinking from 'what my kids/other kids are like' to 'what was I like as a parent?'

 

[pbass888]

Prior to playing I had some success in athletics. I had a coach and teacher from earliest days up to the very highest amateur levels. When I started in music, the idea of getting a teacher on a regular basis seemed very natural. In my sport to be without one was considered almost sacrilege. There were guys who came up in their own , but they were a very rare breed. Most of us at the higher levels of this sport had more than one coach for different aspects of our sport along the way.

Someone who watches you regularly, tracks your progress and helps you develop your own style that achieves your goal is a must for me. I can't imagine making the strides I have made in music from a collection of play along records or books.... Though there are probably those who have.

Those subtle adjustments to you approach , to your ears and to your spirit are incredible when you find he right teacher. I've been lucky enough to spend the last few years here in New York with a great teacher who teaches in the style that he was taught by his mentor Lennie Tristano. Very much of his teaching is steeped in the tradition of our music of passing down the art form from one generation to the next.


I can not imagine much success in my case by sitting alone in my tiny apartment and trying to put together a course of study and also finding time to practice. I'd be spending a lot more time chasing my tail...


In answer to the OP using my sports analogy, yes I think we need teachers/coach throughout our career, be it boxing or bass playing.


Ps please forgive typing on this post as my pc is down and I'm using my wife's iPad which requires typing on a piece of glass .

 

[Tom Lane]

Wow! Such thoughtful and intelligent responses from many different perspectives! This is truly Talkbass at its best, IMO! Thanks to all who've contributed!

I think I'll ignore the sentiment that teachers are not perfect and are sometimes self-serving and downright corrupt because that's really beyond the scope. I think we can all acknowledge that a good, honest, teacher can at least in some instances be beneficial, no? If so, let's put aside the rest for this discussion, at least from my perspective.

One thing that no one touched upon yet, though I suspect many know and use regularly, is how instructive it can be to simply watch another bassist play. I find that I learn a lot both from players lightyears better than me and bassists less developed, and everything in between. I, of course, enjoy the better players more, but if I'm stuck listening to a poor bassist, I find myself analyzing all of the things they're doing wrong which tend to serve as reminders to myself NOT to do those things - not listening, poor intonation, bad time, inappropriate statements, disconnected solos, yadda, yadda, yadda. Even sometimes, much more developed bassists will make choices I disagree with, which helps me recognize my own style. Yes, I think musicians learn a lot simply by listening. Who'd a thunk it?

Another thing I find interesting is how many years later I'll finally understand what a teacher was trying to show me. Recently, it was how Rufus Reid showed me how to intonate well descending. I've been practicing that for nearly 18 months and I finally understood, and can do, what he was demonstrating. Okay, I'm slow, I know, don't rub it in.

I imagine that unanimous consensus is as likely as two economists agreeing about the weather, but I think I heard some common themes:

1) you teach yourself. I think that's true of everything we learn, not just music, but a good teacher, at the right time, can ease the journey and focus your effort to quicker mastery.

2) beginners are well served by getting formal instruction for 6 months or more.

3) at some point, once you're beyond the basics of your instrument and your art, if you want to be considered an artist, you have to develop your own voice and no longer imitate your teacher or your predecessors

4) even masters can benefit from an objective review from a peer

5) even masters can benefit from coaching from a master on a specific skill they themselves are less developed at (grammar, I know, is it really more comprehensible as *at which they themselves are less developed* ?)

So, if I've summarized this right, the answer to the question *do we all need teachers forever* is: yes, for specific skills at specific times, or just general check-ups to address bad habits. Anyone disagree?

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Recently, it was how Rufus Reid showed me how to intonate well descending.

I'd sure like to hear you talk more about that. Actually I'd like you to show me but you're there an I'm here and all.....

 

[Tom Lane]

I'd sure like to hear you talk more about that. Actually I'd like you to show me but you're there an I'm here and all.....

You asked for it. Kind of an aside from the topic.
I spent 90 minutes with Rufus 2 years ago and he refused to charge me a cent at the Aebersold camp. Can you seriously imagine a more generous and kind person? I cannot. I have found Rufus to be the consummate generous soul, endlessly encouraging. I truly, truly, truly, truly, truly, canNOT say enough good things about him as a person. As a player, I believe his playing stands for itself.
In my 90 minutes, he tore apart my left hand, particularly in thumb position, which was completely fair because I was just beginning to explore thumb position at the time.
I found Rufus' instruction all about demonstration with few words in-between. One of the things he said *watch* was how he located his pinky into proper intonation from thumb position and closer to the nut. No words, just action. He did it so quickly that there was no searching between one note and the next. And I think that was the take-away, that the transition between thumb position and nut position should happen instantaneously. All I can say, is, if you're fortunate enough to get Rufus in the same room as you, take full advantage because he's simultaneously a genius on the jazz double bass and a maker of the history itself.
The last thing I can provide, Rufus is still working, earning a living, and occasionally accepting students via Skype if need be. IME, his instruction is worth far more than you can afford.

 

[Don Kasper]

This has been posted before, and it is a long read, but I think it is a great example of "why.." (you should) "...hire a teacher", (when that teacher is Bill Carrothers).
http://www.carrothers.com/pianolesson.htm