Played a song the other night at the jam with a pick, my way, and had no problems at all. Had to keep the 16th note subdivision feeling going in my wrist and arm, although I wasn't hitting every 16th, ya know. Had to have that syncopated sound. I thought about this thread and took note. I was a bit more different than Carol than I expected actually. Yet, I had no fatigue or burning feeling at all in any part of my hand or arm. It sounded good and felt really good, so I guess it WAS good.
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Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method
- Thread starter JimmyM
- Start date
Interesting thread.
I just picked bass back up after a couple of years away. I'm primarily a guitarist and have terrible fingerstyle technique. I decided this time I just don't care. I'm better with a pick and I'm going full pick this time.
According to this thread, I have a lot going for me. I play a short scale bass and pick just behind the pickup, which is in the "sweet spot" position.
I primarily use Dunlop Ultex 1.14 picks. Though I've experimented with 2.0 picks in the past.
I'm a proponent of the George Benson "loosely held pick" school. Let the pick do the work. I taught this thinking for years and it's ingrained in me. I also alternate pick everything.
My one concern regarding picking is I have been feeling a little stiff in my thumb and forefinger on my right hand. I'm not sure if this is because I'm overcompensating or if the change back to bass is just rebuilding my hand muscles I'm leaning towards #2, still concerned about #1. I had a moment at band practice the other night about changing to all down strokes because I thought it sounded better. So I stepped back from the amp and listened to how even my tone was from a few extra feet away. Back to alternate picking.
I just picked bass back up after a couple of years away. I'm primarily a guitarist and have terrible fingerstyle technique. I decided this time I just don't care. I'm better with a pick and I'm going full pick this time.
According to this thread, I have a lot going for me. I play a short scale bass and pick just behind the pickup, which is in the "sweet spot" position.
I primarily use Dunlop Ultex 1.14 picks. Though I've experimented with 2.0 picks in the past.
I'm a proponent of the George Benson "loosely held pick" school. Let the pick do the work. I taught this thinking for years and it's ingrained in me. I also alternate pick everything.
My one concern regarding picking is I have been feeling a little stiff in my thumb and forefinger on my right hand. I'm not sure if this is because I'm overcompensating or if the change back to bass is just rebuilding my hand muscles I'm leaning towards #2, still concerned about #1. I had a moment at band practice the other night about changing to all down strokes because I thought it sounded better. So I stepped back from the amp and listened to how even my tone was from a few extra feet away. Back to alternate picking.
I don't play guitar and am not familiar with George Benson's technique, but the stiffness or soreness you're feeling might be a sign that this technique is problematic when applied to bass. Carol -- a guitar player herself before switching to bass -- emphasizes that your thumb and index finger shouldn't be doing anything other than holding the pick: All of the motion should come from the wrist. She notes that guitar players sometimes get away with anchoring a finger or two on the body and using the thumb and finger to move the pick, but she strongly recommends against this on bass because it requires so much more energy to pick the fat, high-tension strings on a bass. FWIW.
I’ve never anchored. Palm mute, yes. But no anchoring. As this thread says, there’s too much resistance in bass strings by the bridge to palm mute at the bridge. You’re better off using other techniques.
Mostly, my wrist does the work. I’m likely trying to push the pick through the string with extra force from my thumb. Or, my thumb and forefinger are taking more of a shock from thicker strings. It may even be both.
My guess is that it’s a combination of tension in the right hand due to how you’re holding the pick and the amount of downward force you’re using, as you’ve noted.
When you’re holding the pick properly between the pad of your thumb and the side of you index finger, it is quite stable provided the attack is also correct. Another note here is that keeping the hand relaxed and rounded, almost as if holding a small ball, helps in that your other fingers also support the index without much effort...if that makes sense.
Carol also points out that gravity is really what drives the downstrokes. You just let your wrist fall. The upstrokes require effort and she points out that this can lead to some soreness on the pinky side of the wrist when starting out due to the motion.
It’s all fairly challenging to describe, and I am by no means an expert. I have read and reread her posts on the matter and spent a good deal of time working on the technique though. You’ll just feel it’s right when you start to get it.
When you’re holding the pick properly between the pad of your thumb and the side of you index finger, it is quite stable provided the attack is also correct. Another note here is that keeping the hand relaxed and rounded, almost as if holding a small ball, helps in that your other fingers also support the index without much effort...if that makes sense.
Carol also points out that gravity is really what drives the downstrokes. You just let your wrist fall. The upstrokes require effort and she points out that this can lead to some soreness on the pinky side of the wrist when starting out due to the motion.
It’s all fairly challenging to describe, and I am by no means an expert. I have read and reread her posts on the matter and spent a good deal of time working on the technique though. You’ll just feel it’s right when you start to get it.
I mean, that's how you hold a pick. I do think I might be using extra force on the downstroke. I don't have any soreness in my wrist, which is a good sign. Letting my wrist fall a little freer will take some of the tension out of my thumb.
Meant no disrespect, just trying to share my experience and what I’ve found helpful. Personally, I know that it took me a bit just to get holding the pick down properly.
So this thread was super helpful. I had a successful band practice last night. It was easy to notice when I was keeping too much tension in my thumb and forefinger. I played more loosely than I had been, which is how I thought I was playing but obviously wasn't. And now I know how to fix my tension in the future. 
A month and a half on, and a funny thing happened. I started picking just behind the pickup again and my tone improved. But with my rediscovered picking technique, now I have no more thumb pain. So now I've got the best of both worlds (no Sammy Hagar, please).
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I read the whole thread and ordered CK's DVD. I'm still pretty new to this, but leaning towards picks over fingers as my go-to.
I feel like I've got the hand placement, pick grip, wrist motion etc down but my upstrokes just suck on fast 8th notes. It feels like the flat of the pick is slapping awkwardly against the string, I loose my grip on the pick unless I've got it in a death pinch, I can't stay in rhythm very easily, and the string bounces all over the place. Trying to sound decent and stay in time requires much more effort and muscle tension in my hand and arm.
Angling the pick causes a lot of scraping noise but maybe that's because I'm on new roundwound strings, which, maybe those are the main source of my issues? I realize the answer might just be "practice more" but I wonder if I've made things more difficult for myself somehow.
I feel like I've got the hand placement, pick grip, wrist motion etc down but my upstrokes just suck on fast 8th notes. It feels like the flat of the pick is slapping awkwardly against the string, I loose my grip on the pick unless I've got it in a death pinch, I can't stay in rhythm very easily, and the string bounces all over the place. Trying to sound decent and stay in time requires much more effort and muscle tension in my hand and arm.
Angling the pick causes a lot of scraping noise but maybe that's because I'm on new roundwound strings, which, maybe those are the main source of my issues? I realize the answer might just be "practice more" but I wonder if I've made things more difficult for myself somehow.
Try to keep the pick surface parallel with the strings as much as possible, and yes, practice more
I don’t post much anymore, but I have to chime in.
Learn to play with a much lighter touch. Stop increasing your forcefulness to get your tone. Begin to figure out how to make finesse create good tone. Play with just the tip of your pick - play lighter, and turn your amp up a little. Practice with a metronome for a few hundred hours (that advice is guaranteed to start a war around here, but it’s worked for me). You’ll get smooth and able to easily groove for hours at a time. Muscle tension is your enemy; relaxing your hands, fingers, arms and facial muscles will set you free. You may or may not want to back off your high end to avoid clanking your roundwounds.
Those are just my thoughts. My advice is worth every penny you paid.
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Try to keep the pick surface parallel with the strings as much as possible, and yes, practice more
I’d second JimmyM’s recommendations and would add that I found it helpful to keep the fingers of your picking hand somewhat curled under, almost as if holding a ball, so that when your thumb is resting on the first knuckle of your index finger it’s supported by the others.
You can carry a pick around with you to practice this at any time when you’ve got a few spare minutes. I struggled with this as well but it’ll come, when you get the right grip it feels good and is incredibly stable against each stroke.
Remember also that gravity controls the down strokes and you really only exert much effort on the up strokes. I’m no master at it but when I get it right it really feels effortless.
Glad you're enjoying it! As long as you're using at least a Fender heavy, you should be good. I prefer heavier, but once you get to a certain weight, which the typical dividing line is the Fender heavy, that's plenty good. But anything lighter, and then your hand and finger muscles do more of the work, and that's what causes pain.
I really do prefer Fender extra heavies, but they don’t make em in my favorite style.... so I won’t use them...
If Cheap Trick ever calls you, you're ready!
Except you’ll need a LOT more if you’re gonna keep up with Rick. He’s thrown twice that many into the audience before the end of the first verse of the first song.
Hey, I’m curious whether anyone has taken the Carol thing as far as using a super pointy pick like she does? I’ve got some of her’s and I pick one up every now and then at home but it always makes me play like a 70’s cop movie soundtrack....which nobody seems to want to hire me to sound like.
I got some of her picks and after getting used to them grew to prefer them above everything else.
