Couldn't agree more. Entwistle played some very intricate lines. I move around TONS on stage. But when it comes to performing lines like Entwistle's? I tend to stand more still. Ha! His stuff is almost impossibly difficult.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Why is this so badly neglected
- Thread starter CaribooBass
- Start date
Couldn't agree more. Entwistle played some very intricate lines. I move around TONS on stage. But when it comes to performing lines like Entwistle's? I tend to stand more still. Ha! His stuff is almost impossibly difficult.
I think stage presence stems from an understanding that we are entertainers first. I get the impression that some musicians are resistant to this concept. Once you are committed to it, it becomes a journey of self awareness, facing your short comings, being vulnerable, experimentation and working thru failures. This is a place most people don't want to go.
A couple things to add:
This may be hard to hear, but everybody who talks about doing their thing and having their passion come through in their playing etc. etc.: you're kidding yourselves. That will almost never get picked up by the audience. In almost all of the situations in which, i suspect, most of us perform, the people are sort of there to hear the music but more for some nebulous experience of seeing live music, which boils down to being entertained by what's going on up on stage and sometimes---sometimes---that can coincide with what's being done musically but often it's incidental. The average gig audience doesn't appreciate the subtleties of what anybody on stage is doing. If the band lays down a really powerful groove that can get everybody dancing but even then they are still going to be strongly affected by what (if anything) is going on on stage. If you're standing still staring at your hands you're not helping in that regard no matter how into it you are. That will NOT come across. I used to think that I was really rocking out on stage, and then our drummer started taking videos at most of our gigs, and I realized the truth.
That's not to say that everybody in the band has to be gyrating or leaping about all the time. More often than not there will be one or two people who are the focus of the performance and it's fine if the rest of the band just focuses on playing, but it will be even better if you contribute to the visual aspect of performance.
That's also not to say that musicianship and virtuosity do not matter. They absolutely do. But their effect is subtle and indirect. Unless we're talking about showing pyrotechnic solos, the average audience member will not necessarily be able to quantify what makes one rhythm section better than another. But if one band is sloppy and the other is tight and deep in the pocket, that will contribute to a sort of indistinct feeling that the band was good. A tiny percentage will be able to tell you why, but they will all feel it.
And it's important to remember that in music there is an exception to everything. No matter what conventional wisdom tells you, it is never hard to find an example of somebody who succeeded despite doing everything "wrong" and it's even easier to find people who never went anywhere despite doing everything right. But, it's a question of probability. It may be possible to succeed both ways, but one way is usually overwhelmingly more likely to get you there. So if you ignore the performance aspect of your show, you might still go somewhere, if you can play like Allan Holdsworth (which none of us can) (to use an example from up-thread). But the fact that he is successful doing that doesn't mean that it's a good idea for guys playing dance music in a bar to adopt that approach. You're going to bat with strikes against you.
In any field of endeavor, there comes a point at which, to move up the ladder, it becomes necessary to employ some other skill unrelated to what you originally set out to do. If you are playing music, there comes a point (for almost everybody) where you need to focus on other things unrelated to playing your instrument, which may be sound engineering, or marketing, or webmastery . . . or stage performance. That may well be far from what you set out to do, you may not like it, you may not want to put effort into it. But at the end of the day a band that ignores that aspect of the entertainment business will be limited.
This may be hard to hear, but everybody who talks about doing their thing and having their passion come through in their playing etc. etc.: you're kidding yourselves. That will almost never get picked up by the audience. In almost all of the situations in which, i suspect, most of us perform, the people are sort of there to hear the music but more for some nebulous experience of seeing live music, which boils down to being entertained by what's going on up on stage and sometimes---sometimes---that can coincide with what's being done musically but often it's incidental. The average gig audience doesn't appreciate the subtleties of what anybody on stage is doing. If the band lays down a really powerful groove that can get everybody dancing but even then they are still going to be strongly affected by what (if anything) is going on on stage. If you're standing still staring at your hands you're not helping in that regard no matter how into it you are. That will NOT come across. I used to think that I was really rocking out on stage, and then our drummer started taking videos at most of our gigs, and I realized the truth.
That's not to say that everybody in the band has to be gyrating or leaping about all the time. More often than not there will be one or two people who are the focus of the performance and it's fine if the rest of the band just focuses on playing, but it will be even better if you contribute to the visual aspect of performance.
That's also not to say that musicianship and virtuosity do not matter. They absolutely do. But their effect is subtle and indirect. Unless we're talking about showing pyrotechnic solos, the average audience member will not necessarily be able to quantify what makes one rhythm section better than another. But if one band is sloppy and the other is tight and deep in the pocket, that will contribute to a sort of indistinct feeling that the band was good. A tiny percentage will be able to tell you why, but they will all feel it.
And it's important to remember that in music there is an exception to everything. No matter what conventional wisdom tells you, it is never hard to find an example of somebody who succeeded despite doing everything "wrong" and it's even easier to find people who never went anywhere despite doing everything right. But, it's a question of probability. It may be possible to succeed both ways, but one way is usually overwhelmingly more likely to get you there. So if you ignore the performance aspect of your show, you might still go somewhere, if you can play like Allan Holdsworth (which none of us can) (to use an example from up-thread). But the fact that he is successful doing that doesn't mean that it's a good idea for guys playing dance music in a bar to adopt that approach. You're going to bat with strikes against you.
In any field of endeavor, there comes a point at which, to move up the ladder, it becomes necessary to employ some other skill unrelated to what you originally set out to do. If you are playing music, there comes a point (for almost everybody) where you need to focus on other things unrelated to playing your instrument, which may be sound engineering, or marketing, or webmastery . . . or stage performance. That may well be far from what you set out to do, you may not like it, you may not want to put effort into it. But at the end of the day a band that ignores that aspect of the entertainment business will be limited.
This is so true. Tough to read. Much tougher to actually do. But so true.
For those who want to learn about or improve their stage presence, the first step is videotaping. Are you happy and comfortable with what you see? If you are, great! If you aren't, maybe some changes are in order.
Then, if you want to gig, you need to ask yourself if people will actually pay to see what you saw. If so, great! If not, maybe changes are in order, if you want to gig.
In this way, it's not much different than bass playing. I study and work my bass playing because I'm not satisfied. But I have to hear this somehow. Well, the hearing part of stage presence is done through watching video. If you don't hear your bass playing, you don't have an objective start to improve on. If you don't watch your gig tape, you don't have the objective viewpoint of your stage presence.
Personally I've worked stage presence because I've answered no to the questions above sometimes. And there's been times where gigging had to happen, for financial reasons. So I had to improve the visual, much as I've had to improve the bass playing. But that's me. Not everyone has to improve. Not everyone cares to.
It really depends on why you are up on that stage to start off with. What is your goal? What is your band's goal? Stage presence is an outgrowth of the answer to those questions.
One last thing…if you can improve your bass playing, you can improve your stage presence. You can learn and evolve. This is not rocket science. You just need to give it some time and attention. It's actually easier than playing bass.
Due to Covid we had many Sundays our worship was streamed--and at first it was only a musician or two--as things got better we were able to & I was able to play
Due to the steaming I got good idea of what I looked like playing.
I had seen some video before, but this was better quality.
I look more awkward than I thought.
But my foot does get tapping.
Due to the steaming I got good idea of what I looked like playing.
I had seen some video before, but this was better quality.
I look more awkward than I thought.
But my foot does get tapping.
I think Roger, Pete and Keith were the Schtick, as far as stage presence goes.
Already quoted by someone else, but this is so true. The downside of wishing to be "all about the music" is that, once you leave the basement, it turns out to be about so much more.
I am in constant pain so, I have chosen the role of being a backing musician. I remain pleasant in this circumstance, practice diligently, and dress the part while maintaining a friendly onstage demeanor. Once in a while, the crowd leads me on. I take the bait and do a bit more show.
Some stage sizes don't allow for it tho'.
Some stage sizes don't allow for it tho'.
I do band photography as a side gig and a lot of people don't realize just how bored/angry/checked-out they come across until after they've seen photos of a show. It's not their fault, they're focusing on the music and trying not to make any mistakes, but it makes it really hard for the audience to get engaged when the band is just standing there like a bunch of people on line at the grocery store.
Image matters, more so in certain genres than others, and any band that's trying to make progress should have an honest discussion about how much they want to look and act the part. Four dudes in cargo shorts hiding behind a jungle gym of mic stands and ipad holders only moving every once in a while to interact with their pedalboard? Maybe if the music being played is so incredible that it floods the listener with such pure euphoria that do add any additional stimulation would literally blow people's minds... but adjusting your stance, rocking your bass with the beat, making eye contact with the crowd, and interacting with one another during songs is something anyone can do without feeling too embarrassed and it goes soooo far in helping a crowd buy in.
Image matters, more so in certain genres than others, and any band that's trying to make progress should have an honest discussion about how much they want to look and act the part. Four dudes in cargo shorts hiding behind a jungle gym of mic stands and ipad holders only moving every once in a while to interact with their pedalboard? Maybe if the music being played is so incredible that it floods the listener with such pure euphoria that do add any additional stimulation would literally blow people's minds... but adjusting your stance, rocking your bass with the beat, making eye contact with the crowd, and interacting with one another during songs is something anyone can do without feeling too embarrassed and it goes soooo far in helping a crowd buy in.
- Oct 7, 2000
- 18,619
- 38,942
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Musicman basses
I think some people confuse performance with stage presence. One can jump, run, dance and do windmills all night long yet have no stage presence - while another can simply stand there and light up a stage.
Both can work together, for sure, but in my experience they're 2 entirely different things. Without stage presence however - clothes, moves, and good looks are not going to do a whole lot. They can actually make a performer look really bad, and we've all witnessed that.
Both can work together, for sure, but in my experience they're 2 entirely different things. Without stage presence however - clothes, moves, and good looks are not going to do a whole lot. They can actually make a performer look really bad, and we've all witnessed that.
