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Double Bass Why isn't Jazz that popular? (DB forum thread)

#481
topo morto said:
I agree with most of your post, but this idea has come up a few times in this thread and I still don't see how it can be justified. How do you measure 'better'?

It's like comparing driving a car, to riding a bike, or for that matter to crewing a warship.
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Harmonic and rhythmic understanding and knowledge is key if you want to be free when it comes to improvise over chord changes!
Try and ask the average Rock bass player to play for example tunes like Tranes Giant steps or Bill Evans Very early and you know what i mean!
 
#484
lidesnowi said:
All aspects of music is important!
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Sure, but it would be very hard to explore all aspects of music in one genre...

Jazz, for example is great for harmony and rhythm.

It's not so good if you want to consider music other than as a sequence of notes (e.g. ambient, microtonal)... as a place to experiment with different timbres (Jazz is as unsophisticated in its approach to timbre as it is sophisticated in its approach to harmony); if your interest is improvisational lyrics...

That's why the idea that Jazzers have the best skills in music is misguided. They may well have the best skills in certain specific areas.
 
#486
gmarcus said:
I think jazz has become very intellectual. It seems that people prefer their music to have more of a balance with the emotional and physical.
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Comments like this are just the same as “all ____________ music sucks” (insert broad musical category of your choice). Why are people so threatened by jazz? It's a huge trough of wonderful music. Great jazz can be appreciated on many levels.
 
#487
dvh said:
Comments like this are just the same as “all ____________ music sucks” (insert broad musical category of your choice). Why are people so threatened by jazz? It's a huge trough of wonderful music. Great jazz can be appreciated on many levels.
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It comes in responce to the "jazz snob's" remarkes which broadly translates into you don't like/play jazz because you are not smart/good enough to.
 
#488
Jhengsman said:
It comes in responce to the "jazz snob's" remarkes which broadly translates into you don't like/play jazz because you are not smart/good enough to.
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Well, it’s a chicken or egg thing I guess because I’ve read many comments in this thread in which it’s clear the author has minimal understanding of what jazz is.

Plus, like it or not, good jazz does require better chops and a better understanding of rhythm and harmony. I don’t accept the “jazzers are only good at jazz” suggestions sprinkled through this thread. It’s like saying a virtuoso dancer isn’t able to just get down and boogie….
 
#492
Mokebass said:
Personally I find Jazz boring because its lacks direction and edge.
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I'm really curious how old you are? :) It seems that when i was younger, I went and listened to Jazz concerts because i was told it would open my mind and be good for me. I went to see the Modern Jazz Quartet and... well, I found it hard to stay awake. I love playing it more than listening to it. I saw Elvin Jones before he died, and he was definitely a force of nature. I stayed awake for that!:)

But, I still didn't find it as enjoyable as watching a pop concert. Maybe I'm not supposed to enjoy it.... Maybe it's something I'm supposed to have in my musical world for balance.. you know, the "rough with the smooth?" I'm just thinking out loud.. Oh well.. There aer benefits to be gained though..;)
 
#494
dvh said:
All I can tell you is I’ve been playing bass for over 30 years in a variety of genres most of which I would generalize under the term “popular music”. Since getting into jazz I have humbly discovered my current limitations and just how long the potential journey can be…
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I'm sure I would feel the much the same... props to you for taking the plunge, and I wish I had the time to take a proper Jazz journey as a player right now...

If we are just talking about playing the bass, I can understand the idea that Jazz may well be the genre that can potentially test (and develop) some skills the most. Possibly true for other instruments as well.

However, I thought that in this thread, we're talking 'music in general', and others - maybe not you - seem to think that because the traditional instrumental skills that you need to play jazz may be, in a sense, more advanced than those you need for some other genres, that Jazz is somehow the highest plane of music - which at best is an instrument-centred view of music, and IMO a rather silly logical leap.
 
#495
I don't have a huge investment in this debate; I am schooled in Jazz but am not a "professional" musician and my schooling is limited by those standards. I love Jazz, but recognize it only gets about a 3% market share, and this doesn't bother me. I don't think this is due to any deficiencies in the general public; it just is the way it is.

I am surprised that there is so much resistance to the idea that jazz is "more difficult" to play than more popular styles. I wonder how many in this camp actually study/listen to/play jazz. Jazz is not just swing, or playing "autumn leaves" out of a fake book. There is so much diversity in Jazz, it really seems that anything is possible, but the common theme is an emphasis on excellent craftmanship. To say that jazz lacks anything (heart, soul, attention to timbre, etc) means that the speaker has not listened very hard, imho.

I do believe that Jazz has a higher bar to entry than any other popular style. Sure, lots of players in other styles have studied harder/play better than an average jazz musician, and world class musicians of any genre require a lifetime of devotion. However, you can't just jump into jazz and be playing in a couple of months like you can with bluegrass, rock, reggae, etc. Jazz IS more difficult, and I think you would get the same opinion from drummers, guitar players, keyboard players, etc.

This idea seems to be upsetting to a number of people, and I don't know why. Does it upset people when they are told that playing classical music requires a deeper skill set than playing the blues? This shouldn't be controversial.

But...this does not mean that jazz is BETTER than any other style. Phish at their best hit levels of improvisation and technique that is on par with the best jazz combos. The Roots can lay down anything. Examples abound.

Perhaps it comes down to the Jazz police, as to why Jazz is not popular. As I mentioned before, when swing was popular in the mid 90s, it was dismissed as "not real swing." Jazz/electronica/DJ fusions and experimentation (St. Germaine, UFO, Acid Jazz) are not "real jazz." When Joan Osborne sang "Lover Man" on Greg Osby's Public album, people were quick to say "oh, she's not a jazz singer." Examples abound.

How can Jazz be popular when every popular expression of it is derided as "not real jazz?"

I think Jazz will last forever, and always have an influence on popular music. It just might not be taking the forms that everyone will accept.

Here is a song to enjoy this morning. i don't know if it is Jazz:

William Parker & Leena Conquest - Corn meal dance (2007) - YouTube
 
#498
othefool said:
I don't have a huge investment in this debate; I am schooled in Jazz but am not a "professional" musician and my schooling is limited by those standards. I love Jazz, but recognize it only gets about a 3% market share, and this doesn't bother me. I don't think this is due to any deficiencies in the general public; it just is the way it is.

I am surprised that there is so much resistance to the idea that jazz is "more difficult" to play than more popular styles. I wonder how many in this camp actually study/listen to/play jazz. Jazz is not just swing, or playing "autumn leaves" out of a fake book. There is so much diversity in Jazz, it really seems that anything is possible, but the common theme is an emphasis on excellent craftmanship. To say that jazz lacks anything (heart, soul, attention to timbre, etc) means that the speaker has not listened very hard, imho.

I do believe that Jazz has a higher bar to entry than any other popular style. Sure, lots of players in other styles have studied harder/play better than an average jazz musician, and world class musicians of any genre require a lifetime of devotion. However, you can't just jump into jazz and be playing in a couple of months like you can with bluegrass, rock, reggae, etc. Jazz IS more difficult, and I think you would get the same opinion from drummers, guitar players, keyboard players, etc.

This idea seems to be upsetting to a number of people, and I don't know why. Does it upset people when they are told that playing classical music requires a deeper skill set than playing the blues? This shouldn't be controversial.

But...this does not mean that jazz is BETTER than any other style. Phish at their best hit levels of improvisation and technique that is on par with the best jazz combos. The Roots can lay down anything. Examples abound.

Perhaps it comes down to the Jazz police, as to why Jazz is not popular. As I mentioned before, when swing was popular in the mid 90s, it was dismissed as "not real swing." Jazz/electronica/DJ fusions and experimentation (St. Germaine, UFO, Acid Jazz) are not "real jazz." When Joan Osborne sang "Lover Man" on Greg Osby's Public album, people were quick to say "oh, she's not a jazz singer." Examples abound.

How can Jazz be popular when every popular expression of it is derided as "not real jazz?"

I think Jazz will last forever, and always have an influence on popular music. It just might not be taking the forms that everyone will accept.

Here is a song to enjoy this morning. i don't know if it is Jazz:

William Parker & Leena Conquest - Corn meal dance (2007) - YouTube
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Great post. Great summary of the discussion points.
 
#499
othefool said:
I do believe that Jazz has a higher bar to entry than any other popular style.
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I think that's a common view, but I don't see why it has to be that way, and I wish it wasn't. I feel I would have got a lot more out of being taught music theory from a Jazz, rather than a classical standpoint, when I was younger - particularly the 'anything is possible' part.

othefool said:
William Parker & Leena Conquest - Corn meal dance (2007) - YouTube
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Listened to half, but had to turn it off 'cos I'm making somene's online game lag! :eyebrow:
 
#500
fingerbun said:
Have you ever put some Basie or Ellington in front of a highly trained classical pianist who has not explored jazz, and asked them to play it, and found they can play all the notes but it just doesn't have the right feel?
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Or worse, ask them to jam(improvise) with you, over rhythm changes, or blues? I have. Not good. Not to say that NO classically trained musician can, but, that has been my experience. On the other hand, I can't read my way out of a paper bag.....different skills.
 

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