Why MIM Fenders are bad?

[DavidEdenAria]

I've been playing bass for over 20 years and I've played, owned and borrowed all makes and models of different basses. The MIM basses that I own I absolutely love. My main two gigging instruments for the better part of my time playing have been MIM basses, although they are former shadows of what they started out as.

While MIMs used to be a much better value, IMO, compared to what they are today, there are still some great values built into some of them. I'm not as big of a fan of the newer basic model MIMs because I feel that they don't justify the price anymore. When the basic models used to go for between $300-400, they were a killer value, I got my 96 MIM used for about $150 and it's been my main bass for nearly 20 years! These days, they're just too expensive for what they offer. I feel like a lot of the import companies offer much more value per dollar on a sheet of paper than the basic MIM models do. I'd much rather get a Sire, G&L Tribute, Lakland Skyline or higher end Squier for the cost than a basic model MIM.

To give you an example of my experience: about 3 years ago the new Sterling stingray copies came out and I walked into a GC with cash in hand to buy a new Fender Deluxe MIM P-Bass (seafoam green, maple neck with black block inlays, himass bridge and active PJ pups!). After spending some time with the bass in the store and messing around on a handful of other basses in the story, I gave the Sterling Ray a try. I was absolutely floored by the fact that this low cost import licensed Stingray played just as well as and had workmanship that was easily on par with the much more expensive MIM Deluxe bass. I weighed some of my options and took home the Sub Ray. I haven't looked back since. The Sub Ray got me over my Fender-lust because it made me realize that the value isn't there anymore for MIM Fenders.

There's a lot of "try before you buy" advice out there, and I completely agree with it. You might try out a basic model MIM and absolutely fall in love with it, but for the cost of a MIM Fender you can get something so much more robust and versatile. If I start aching for a 70's inlay neck on a Pbass again, I'll just get a Squier I've decided. There's nothing inherently bad about the MIM Fender basses, they're just dinosaurs in a human's world these days.

As far as American made Fenders go: They've always been a crapshoot as for whether or not they'll actually out perform a MIM bass for me. I got a MIM Deluxe back in 2002 that was clearly made using mostly American parts. The only parts on the bass that actually fit "Mexican" specs at the time were the pick guard, pots and tuners, everything else on it was American spec. That made me very wary of the value of MIA Fenders outside of the higher end range. When I got my MIJ Mustang and it outplayed my original Musicmaster and had better fit and finish than my MIA Jazz, I dropped my MIA Jazz and Musicmaster on Ebay pretty fast. I miss the MIJ Mustang... sad. I wanted a super versatile gigging bass that would do just about any sound that I could muster out of it and I started digging around for a Fender MIA Deluxe P with the active humbucker pups, figuring it would be a versatility monster and just be baller. I ended buying a MIK G&L Tribute L2000 that did everything and anything under the sun, except look the way I wanted it to for less than half the price of the MIA Deluxe. (God, I miss that bass...). And when five string fever came calling, I started my search with Fender Deluxe 5 string models and EB Musicman basses, I ended up with an MIK Ibanez SR505 because it was less than half the price of the EB and Fenders and has way more range of tone.

MIM and MIA Fenders aren't inherently bad instruments. After 20 years of experience and owning a huge array of basses, MIM and MIA Fenders just don't offer any value for myself. Yeah, my two mains are 02 and 96 MIM P-basses, but they're hardly stock and they're the two basses that have remained in my stable through thick and thin.

TL;DR: I've been around Fender basses for a long time, I just don't think they're a good value with the improvements in the import market and the fact that Fender prices remain relatively high for fewer features.

This is why you buy used MIM Fenders, no matter if its a bass or guitar....there are MANY of them on the used market in my local area (mainly pawns), many more than the other brands in the $150 to $300 price range used but i also favor USA Peavey basses in this price range.

I must say, in the 3 local GC stores these aforementioned models tend to fly out the door used in the sub $300 range...the price of new MIM Fenders seems to be driving the used MIM market possibly?

 

[Jim Carr]

It's absolutely NOT false...

Correct. I acknowledged these exist in posts subsequent to #163. Even old arrogant men can learn and even (gasp) admit error. I've omitted the "IMHO," and that was a mistake, too.

However, (and there's always a however, isn't there? ) the vast majority of MIM basses built in the last couple of decades do not use the hippie sandwich + veneer technique—at least the many I have played, examined and owned.

As I noted above, that technique could very well be more expensive that 3 simple butted and glued planks of alder or ash, and the veneer, at least in the case of natural finish Geddy Lee MIM Jazzes, was obviously designed to make the bass look like a fine piece of ash. This is deceptive—though is it a bug or a feature? I wonder what the Ad copy or specs say about it? Others have noted that these basses sound fine.

Are these still being built in this way? As I recall, the instrument in photos above was from 2006, after the improvements a few years earlier, but before the ~2008 general quality improvement in the MIA and MIM lines.

Thus, the larger question of "MIM == Bad?" is not answered by the hippie sandwich/veneer basses, IMHO. I think one must distinguish between instruments made by Fender in Mexico before ~2004, and later basses. Veneers over 7 piece bodies have not been the norm, AFAIK, and at least in some cases were necessitated by the clear finish on the G.L. sig basses. The veneered sandwich was cheaper, and probably lighter than a single piece of Ash. All IMHO.

 

[gtlover]

Please keep in mind that my questions are about buying a stock new bass, instead of used/self proven ones or modded ones. Financially it is obviously better to buy used, but the questions are not about that. Also I am asking about the same year/season products because there are of course big differences comparing different times.

1. How does someone find a good MIM Fender? Back in '92 I picked my favorite from the store inventory. But it was splitting hairs - they all sounded and played virtually the same
2. What actually is better/worse? Is it the build quality? Is it the wood quality? Is it only the tone? Is it the workmanship? Is there a secret serial number to be deciphered on the good ones (lol)? The quality has gotten better over time, I think the fit & finish is a little nicer and the pickups and electronics are definitely better now.
3. How much do these aspects differ amongst these basses (same design, different series/brand)? For example, maybe the wood is far superior in MIAs but what about the electronics? MIA tend to have 'better' woods (this is somewhat subjective depending on your tastes), better hardware, better fretwork, better pickups, better controls, some fancier appointments and more color choices with usually better paint. Whether that's worth it is up to you and how you feel about the bass you're holding. Philip Knight has done a couple of videos discussing all of this.
4. Is there really a huge gap between the good and bad MIMs or is it exaggerated? How much can two MIMs be different? IMHO there are MIAs that are good and MIAs that are amazing. But I've found MIMs to be consistently good, and easily upgraded to your tastes to make them better.
5. Lets say that you ordered one online, do you think that its pure luck to actually get a good MIM? Or is it your bad luck that you got an exceptionally bad one? What are the odds of ending up with a bad one when picking blindly? Chances are quite good that any random MIM will be just fine, and I have no qualms about buying one online, new or used. Expect to spend time and/or money on a good setup job, though. And possibly budget for pickups, pots, bridge, etc.
6. Finally, what are your opinions about the latest (2018) MIM Fenders. They're pretty good. Better out of the box than they were 25 years ago, for sure. Also, if you're thinking about buying new, wait for a black friday/cyber monday/end of the year blowout sale and put the savings towards upgrades and accessories.

One of the things I initially liked about my MIM was that if it were stolen or destroyed, it could be easily replaced with another one. Pick your favorite color, gig it hard and often without fear!

 

[amphlett7]

Correct. I acknowledged these exist in posts subsequent to #163. Even old arrogant men can learn and even (gasp) admit error. I've omitted the "IMHO," and that was a mistake, too.

Fair enough. I posted my reply before reading all the way to the end.

However, (and there's always a however, isn't there? ) the vast majority of MIM basses built in the last couple of decades do not use the hippie sandwich + veneer technique—at least the many I have played, examined and owned.

As I noted above, that technique could very well be more expensive that 3 simple butted and glued planks of alder or ash, and the veneer, at least in the case of natural finish Geddy Lee MIM Jazzes, was obviously designed to make the bass look like a fine piece of ash. This is deceptive—though is it a bug or a feature? I wonder what the Ad copy or specs say about it? Others have noted that these basses sound fine.

There are definitely MIM models that didn't do this, but I've heard that the run of the mill models like the standards were most likely to be done this way before 2008.

It doesn't sound like it would be cheaper. But you have to consider that it was likely a cost cutting measure to reduce wood waste.
The strips of wood were likely off cuts from more expensive models. I've also heard that the veneer was intended for the Sunburst models and that any solid colour models with the veneer were simple bodies deemed unfit for clear finish.

As for ad copy, Fender's 2005 MIM standard page shows them as having a "contoured alder body" in the case of the Strat.
Fender® Products

Are these still being built in this way? As I recall, the instrument in photos above was from 2006, after the improvements a few years earlier, but before the ~2008 general quality improvement in the MIA and MIM lines.

They probably aren't, they more likely now just use 3-4 pieces of alder.
Mine was a 2006. I'd assume anything post 2008 would be a different style of body.

Thus, the larger question of "MIM == Bad?" is not answered by the hippie sandwich/veneer basses, IMHO. I think one must distinguish between instruments made by Fender in Mexico before ~2004, and later basses. Veneers over 7 piece bodies have not been the norm, AFAIK, and at least in some cases were necessitated by the clear finish on the G.L. sig basses. The veneered sandwich was cheaper, and probably lighter than a single piece of Ash. All IMHO.

I made no judgement on the quality or value of the basses based on the veneer body style.
I simply shared my experience so people knew that this had been the process at some point.

The veneer body I have is actually quite heavy, unfortunately. Possibly heavier than a Northern Ash body.

However, that Jazz bass had the best playing neck ever and some really high quality hardware.

 

[MCF]

I've been playing bass for over 20 years and I've played, owned and borrowed all makes and models of different basses. The MIM basses that I own I absolutely love. My main two gigging instruments for the better part of my time playing have been MIM basses, although they are former shadows of what they started out as.

While MIMs used to be a much better value, IMO, compared to what they are today, there are still some great values built into some of them. I'm not as big of a fan of the newer basic model MIMs because I feel that they don't justify the price anymore. When the basic models used to go for between $300-400, they were a killer value, I got my 96 MIM used for about $150 and it's been my main bass for nearly 20 years! These days, they're just too expensive for what they offer. I feel like a lot of the import companies offer much more value per dollar on a sheet of paper than the basic MIM models do. I'd much rather get a Sire, G&L Tribute, Lakland Skyline or higher end Squier for the cost than a basic model MIM.

To give you an example of my experience: about 3 years ago the new Sterling stingray copies came out and I walked into a GC with cash in hand to buy a new Fender Deluxe MIM P-Bass (seafoam green, maple neck with black block inlays, himass bridge and active PJ pups!). After spending some time with the bass in the store and messing around on a handful of other basses in the story, I gave the Sterling Ray a try. I was absolutely floored by the fact that this low cost import licensed Stingray played just as well as and had workmanship that was easily on par with the much more expensive MIM Deluxe bass. I weighed some of my options and took home the Sub Ray. I haven't looked back since. The Sub Ray got me over my Fender-lust because it made me realize that the value isn't there anymore for MIM Fenders.

There's a lot of "try before you buy" advice out there, and I completely agree with it. You might try out a basic model MIM and absolutely fall in love with it, but for the cost of a MIM Fender you can get something so much more robust and versatile. If I start aching for a 70's inlay neck on a Pbass again, I'll just get a Squier I've decided. There's nothing inherently bad about the MIM Fender basses, they're just dinosaurs in a human's world these days.

As far as American made Fenders go: They've always been a crapshoot as for whether or not they'll actually out perform a MIM bass for me. I got a MIM Deluxe back in 2002 that was clearly made using mostly American parts. The only parts on the bass that actually fit "Mexican" specs at the time were the pick guard, pots and tuners, everything else on it was American spec. That made me very wary of the value of MIA Fenders outside of the higher end range. When I got my MIJ Mustang and it outplayed my original Musicmaster and had better fit and finish than my MIA Jazz, I dropped my MIA Jazz and Musicmaster on Ebay pretty fast. I miss the MIJ Mustang... sad. I wanted a super versatile gigging bass that would do just about any sound that I could muster out of it and I started digging around for a Fender MIA Deluxe P with the active humbucker pups, figuring it would be a versatility monster and just be baller. I ended buying a MIK G&L Tribute L2000 that did everything and anything under the sun, except look the way I wanted it to for less than half the price of the MIA Deluxe. (God, I miss that bass...). And when five string fever came calling, I started my search with Fender Deluxe 5 string models and EB Musicman basses, I ended up with an MIK Ibanez SR505 because it was less than half the price of the EB and Fenders and has way more range of tone.

MIM and MIA Fenders aren't inherently bad instruments. After 20 years of experience and owning a huge array of basses, MIM and MIA Fenders just don't offer any value for myself. Yeah, my two mains are 02 and 96 MIM P-basses, but they're hardly stock and they're the two basses that have remained in my stable through thick and thin.

TL;DR: I've been around Fender basses for a long time, I just don't think they're a good value with the improvements in the import market and the fact that Fender prices remain relatively high for fewer features.

Don't know what to say to this. I have a Sterling SUB. It was used, but never played. $200. It's a test bed for me, nothing more. The fretends on mine were awful. It took 90 minutes of filing to make it playable. Once fixed and set up, it's a decent, cheap bass. It is no where near the quality of my three MIM Fenders. Anyone who thinks it is is delusional and I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'll be happy to sell them.

 

[Bassist30]

I have not heard to many Road Worn members unhappy with their bass.

 

[mouthmw]

I have not heard to many Road Worn members unhappy with their bass.

True, those were always praised. Which is why I was extremely surprised when I ordered a brand new Flea signature Jazz (which is basically Road Worn series) and got a dud (neck paint peeling off, neck bowed like an arrow, tech couldn't straighten it out). Back to Fender it went and the replacement they sent had a wrongly cut nut and lacquer all over the upper frets. Back to Fender again! Third one had a nice solid neck, a bit too sloppy neck pocket, but it was alright. Frets on all three had slightly sharp ends.

Now I don't expect a super quality out of MIM, but for the price of that new Flea Jazz, I could have bought a nice used MIA, so I sold it very soon. Heck, my Highway One Fender was leagues above the quality of that Flea, no doubt, CV Squiers in the store had better fretwork and fit/finish/neck joints. No joke. Now I'm apprehensive of MIM, and I would definitely have to try it first before buying.

IME, CV Squiers beat MIM Fenders.

 

[amphlett7]

Don't know what to say to this. I have a Sterling SUB. It was used, but never played. $200. It's a test bed for me, nothing more. The fretends on mine were awful. It took 90 minutes of filing to make it playable. Once fixed and set up, it's a decent, cheap bass. It is no where near the quality of my three MIM Fenders. Anyone who thinks it is is delusional and I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'll be happy to sell them.

I think the big issue with both of these is that they vary so much.

I played a new Sterling Sub recently and was blown away by how good it was for so little money.
The one I played last year didn't even touch the lowliest P Bass copy.

I've played MIM basses that killed American fenders and I've also played MIM's that weren't anywhere near my Squier Affinity!

That's the Caveat of the sub $1000 basses. Inconsistency.

I'd suggest buying 10 Squier affinity Precisions and finding the best individual parts and combining them into one super-bass.

 

[MtManiac]

True, those were always praised. Which is why I was extremely surprised when I ordered a brand new Flea signature Jazz (which is basically Road Worn series) and got a dud (neck paint peeling off, neck bowed like an arrow, tech couldn't straighten it out). Back to Fender it went and the replacement they sent had a wrongly cut nut and lacquer all over the upper frets. Back to Fender again! Third one had a nice solid neck, a bit too sloppy neck pocket, but it was alright. Frets on all three had slightly sharp ends.

Now I don't expect a super quality out of MIM, but for the price of that new Flea Jazz, I could have bought a nice used MIA, so I sold it very soon. Heck, my Highway One Fender was leagues above the quality of that Flea, no doubt, CV Squiers in the store had better fretwork and fit/finish/neck joints. No joke. Now I'm apprehensive of MIM, and I would definitely have to try it first before buying.

IME, CV Squiers beat MIM Fenders.

Your experience is certainly valid, but the 2-3 Flea sigs I've played were all 100% perfect, as has every Road Worn I've played.

 

[mouthmw]

Your experience is certainly valid, but the 2-3 Flea sigs I've played were all 100% perfect, as has every Road Worn I've played.

I've read about quite a bit of QC issues regarding Flea sigs here. Most often one seems to be ski jump neck (all 3 of mine had this to some extent, 3rd one not as bad). I bet they had to churn those out in large quantities and fast, and that's why there's general lack of QC on Flea jazzes. Unless you really inspected those 3 in detail, I'm not really convinced they were perfect. Of course, they might have been. Oh, and I don't think any Fender is really perfect off the store since they all usually come with high action, and they need setup. Once you try to set them up, then you truly see if there are any issues.

I also believe standard Road Worn probably have better QC than Flea jazzes. I simply refuse to believe otherwise

 

[MtManiac]

I've read about quite a bit of QC issues regarding Flea sigs here. Most often one seems to be ski jump neck (all 3 of mine had this to some extent, 3rd one not as bad). I bet they had to churn those out in large quantities and fast, and that's why there's general lack of QC on Flea jazzes. Unless you really inspected those 3 in detail, I'm not really convinced they were perfect. Of course, they might have been. Oh, and I don't think any Fender is really perfect off the store since they all usually come with high action, and they need setup. Once you try to set them up, then you truly see if there are any issues.

I also believe standard Road Worn probably have better QC than Flea jazzes. I simply refuse to believe otherwise

I'm ok with your skepticism, I don't mind not convincing you. As I said, *your* experience is certainly valid, as is mine.

 

[selowitch]

Would I be correct in assuming that the RWs and the Flea sigs are both made at the Ensenada, Mexico factory?

 

[MtManiac]

Would I be correct in assuming that the RWs and the Flea sigs are both made at the Ensenada, Mexico factory?

They're all made in Mexico, and I think that's the only plant in Mexico, so I'm gonna say yes!

 

[MtManiac]

I've read about quite a bit of QC issues regarding Flea sigs here. Most often one seems to be ski jump neck (all 3 of mine had this to some extent, 3rd one not as bad). I bet they had to churn those out in large quantities and fast, and that's why there's general lack of QC on Flea jazzes. Unless you really inspected those 3 in detail, I'm not really convinced they were perfect. Of course, they might have been. Oh, and I don't think any Fender is really perfect off the store since they all usually come with high action, and they need setup. Once you try to set them up, then you truly see if there are any issues.

I also believe standard Road Worn probably have better QC than Flea jazzes. I simply refuse to believe otherwise

Just further to this, one of my "go to" tunes for testing basses in-store is the bass and horns run from "Sir Duke", as it takes me across all strings, all ranges of the neck and requires me to play pretty fast and in time between the 12th-20th frets, including all the way to the 20th fret, and back down across all strings. It gives me a good sense of the speed of a neck with my hands, and any fret buzz due to ski jumps, raised frets, low action, etc. all become apparent pretty quickly, as do dead spots. I'm sure I drive the guys at the stores I go to nuts, I imagine "Sir Duke" must be the bass player's version of "Stairway to Heaven" or "Smoke On The Water". I also do a visual inspection of the neck joint, bridge saddles height, and the nut groove height, and run my hands along the edge of the fretboard to feel any fret sprout. I've done all of this on each of the Flea sigs I've played and was left thinking it was the best Jazz neck I've ever played - not sure if it was 2 or 3 that I've played, as I played at least one multiple times and my memory is fuzzy. I have not read the reviews you've read, but I don't doubt that you've read them, nor do I doubt your experience.

 

[Double E]

I imagine "Sir Duke" must be the bass player's version of "Stairway to Heaven" or "Smoke On The Water".

If that's the case in your area, you must have a pretty high caliber of players populating the region. I have never heard anyone cover "Sir Duke" in a music store. I did hear one cat pull off a decent "Portrait of Tracy" though.

 

[MtManiac]

If that's the case in your area, you must have a pretty high caliber of players populating the region. I have never heard anyone cover "Sir Duke" in a music store. I did hear one cat pull off a decent "Portrait of Tracy" though.

I can't say I have heard others do it, but it's what I do. I might be just making a fool of myself in front of better players, there are one or two cats who work at my local stores who play really well and are much younger than I am, but this is what I've been using for a while and it works well, I highly recommend it.

 

[godofthunder59]

Nothing wrong with them and they have really upped thier game in the past few years. Unless you started playing in the early 60s-80 you don't know what crap is.

 

[MtManiac]

Nothing wrong with them and they have really upped thier game in the past few years. Unless you started playing in the early 60s-80 you don't know what crap is.

Some were garbage, and some weren't. I *wish* we had the current MIMs and Squiers at a normalized-for-inflation price point back in 1982 when I started, that would make them what, about $125-200? Sadly, even a lot of USA-made Fenders were poor at that time. After my first piece of c**p Harmony bass and using my school band's Ampeg Big Stud (also a POS), my first real bass was a 1985 USA-made Peavey, and I still have it, but it would have sold for about the same as a current day MIM if dollars are normalized for inflation. Tuners, bridge and nut are all still in perfect shape, the neck has no fret buzz at all - there's some scratchiness on the input jack, the pickguard is broken near the input jack, some pickguard screws are oxidized, and there's a finish divot where my right forearm rests, but otherwise it is in top shape. Yamahas and Vantages were also pretty good back then and worth the money, but there was some real garbage too - Hondo, Series A, Harmony, Profile, Fernandez - lots of fret buzz, warped necks, flaky finishes, cheap wood, garbage pickups, and they sold like hot cakes because for beginners that's all we had. The actual Squiers back then were MIJ IIRC, but were also stripped down versions of what a person actually wanted, such as the Bullet instead of a P bass. Yamahas and Vantages weren't considered beginner instruments, they were intermediate to professional, like a MIM-MIA Fender today.

Some of those 70s-80s brands like Tokai or Vantage were well built and all, but I would put a current Classic Vibe or MIM Player or Classic up against any of the ones I've experienced - and have a new bass.

 

[godofthunder59]

Some were garbage, and some weren't. I *wish* we had the current MIMs and Squiers at a normalized-for-inflation price point back in 1982 when I started, that would make them what, about $125-200? Sadly, even a lot of USA-made Fenders were poor at that time. After my first piece of c**p Harmony bass and using my school band's Ampeg Big Stud (also a POS), my first real bass was a 1985 USA-made Peavey, and I still have it, but it would have sold for about the same as a current day MIM if dollars are normalized for inflation. Tuners, bridge and nut are all still in perfect shape, the neck has no fret buzz at all - there's some scratchiness on the input jack, the pickguard is broken near the input jack, some pickguard screws are oxidized, and there's a finish divot where my right forearm rests, but otherwise it is in top shape. Yamahas and Vantages were also pretty good back then and worth the money, but there was some real garbage too - Hondo, Series A, Harmony, Profile, Fernandez - lots of fret buzz, warped necks, flaky finishes, cheap wood, garbage pickups, and they sold like hot cakes because for beginners that's all we had. The actual Squiers back then were MIJ IIRC, but were also stripped down versions of what a person actually wanted, such as the Bullet instead of a P bass. Yamahas and Vantages weren't considered beginner instruments, they were intermediate to professional, like a MIM-MIA Fender today.

Some of those 70s-80s brands like Tokai or Vantage were well built and all, but I would put a current Classic Vibe or MIM Player or Classic up against any of the ones I've experienced - and have a new bass.

Right around 75 we started getting Ibanez stuff in the store and some of it was quality stuff, my 76 Destroyer being a example. So I should restate that early 60s to mid 70s was the era of real junk. Btw I still own my 76 Destroyer.

 

[MtManiac]

Right around 75 we started getting Ibanez stuff in the store and some of it was quality stuff, my 76 Destroyer being a example. So I should restate that early 60s to mid 70s was the era of real junk. Btw I still own my 76 Destroyer. View attachment 3188936

That's beautiful!