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Double Bass Why no new Jazz Standards?

1. Are BMI/ASCAP royalty payments required ONLY when the printed (and/or published) written music is being used/viewed by the performers at a live performance? Is playing from memory exempt?
How about if the composition Title is never mentioned at a performance? How can it be proven in a court of Law that a tune was played? (This may be the Mother of All Rabbit Holes.)
2. I've been playing live gigs for 45+ years and have never had any BMI/ASCAP contact before/during/after a gig. Is this a "thing", nowadays in certain locales?

1. If you play it, they want the money it seems. Check out what BMI has to say about it here -- in one paragraph:

Music Users | BMI.com

Also check out their licensing agreement to bars and restaurants. Minimum fee is $370, maximum is around $11,000 based on occupancy and frequency of nights music is played.

2. They try to get your set list or write down the songs you play. It's happened to me. Here is my experience locally, to answer your second question.

2011: I was hired by a Food Truck event organizer at a mall to perform live jazz and also 80's music with another band I was in. She told me the BMI folks called her and asked if she had paid the public performance royalties -- she asked if I knew anything about the law in this regard. I told her the law says the venue pays and she checked with the mall from whom she was renting or using parking space area for the Food truck event. That solved it as the mall had apparently paid the fee.

2011: We were performing regularly at a bar. The bar owner stopped having live music because he got a letter from the music rights management agency telling him to either pay the fee or stop having live music. We lost the gig because he didn't want to pay the fee.

2012: I approached a local brewing company about live music. They told us it had to be original music because they didn't want to pay the licensing fees. I told them we could play the chords of popular songs but simply improvise over the chords, as that would not violate artist's rights. They said they were uncomfortable with that and hired someone else.

2015: I partnered with an organization (non-profit) to put on a Health and Music Festival. We had live music for the full four hours and it was well-advertised on radio and social media and in certain print channels. The partner organization got a call from BMI asking if we had paid the licensing fee. They explained they were non-profit and none of the musicians were paid. So the music rights management company went away with no consequence.

2015: The president of the non-profit we partnered with on the Health and Music festival told me she and her husband used to get $150 dollars a night from BMI to go out to various places, write down the names of the songs the musicians were playing, and forward it to BMI so they could follow up with a letter to cease having live music or pay the fee.

2016: I approached a local restaurant owner about live music. He said he wanted to do it, but was afraid of getting hit by the music rights management agency. The fee was too high for him so he refused to do it -- until I offered to write 3 hours of original music. We advertised it heavily, and sure enough, he got a phone call from BMI. The restaurant owner told them it was all original music, and it went away. But at one of our gigs, a man approached us and asked for our set list. We said we didn't have one, as we just called the tunes we were playing, and they were all original so he wouldn't have recognized them anyway. He left us alone.

2017: I approached a wine bar about having a jazz duo. They said they didn't want to do it because the fee they have to pay to have live music was too expensive. I told them about our original music but they were too afraid to do it.

So, the music rights management companies are alive in well in my town. I keep running into them. It's a shame really. Playing these songs live keeps the songs alive. The keep the genre alive, and the music rights management companies are all but destroying live music in this town.

Frankly, I need to get to a lawyer about what is involved in getting a license to print songs without copyright infringement or public performance licensing fees.

Even if we set the free license at 200 seats (if this is even possible), someone would need to enforce the public performance rights if people started playing the songs in venues that seat more than 200. Laws are only as good as your ability to enforce them.... Would this be BMI, and would they disagree with eating their lunch by licensing all these songs for free even in limited seating venues?

The other thing -- I wouldn't want to limit the songs I wrote to only small venues. I would want them to be played in crowds bigger than that. It's when its played at a stadium that seats thousands, or in a movie or something that I would actually care about it. That's why I think there's a case for giving up all the public performance rights, all the print royalties, and let the music percolate through the entire world like the Real Book did. Get fees for recordings and other non-performance, non-publishing sources. None of us are going to get our music out there otherwise....If it wasnt' for the Real Book, I never would have discovered Blue Bossa and a host of other tunes out there.

Anyway, until I see a lawyer this is partly speculation. But these are my experiences.

I hope that answers your question.
 

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1. If you play it, they want the money it seems. Check out what BMI has to say about it here -- in one paragraph:

Music Users | BMI.com

2. They try to get your set list or write down the songs you play. It's happened to me. Here is my experience locally, to answer your second question.

2011: I was hired by a Food Truck event organizer at a mall to perform live jazz and also 80's music with another band I was in. She told me the BMI folks called her and asked if she had paid the public performance royalties -- she asked if I knew anything about the law in this regard. I told her the law says the venue pays and she checked with the mall from whom she was renting or using parking space area for the Food truck event. That solved it as the mall had apparently paid the fee.

2011: We were performing regularly at a bar. The bar owner stopped having live music because he got a letter from the music rights management agency telling him to either pay the fee or stop having live music. We lost the gig because he didn't want to pay the fee.

2012: I approached a local brewing company about live music. They told us it had to be original music because they didn't want to pay the licensing fees. I told them we could play the chords of popular songs but simply improvise over the chords, as that would not violate artist's rights. They said they were uncomfortable with that and hired someone else.

2015: I partnered with an organization (non-profit) to put on a Health and Music Festival. We had live music for the full four hours and it was well-advertised on radio and social media and in certain print channels. The partner organization got a call from BMI asking if we had paid the licensing fee. They explained they were non-profit and none of the musicians were paid. So the music rights management company went away with no consequence.

2015: The president of the non-profit we partnered with on the Health and Music festival told me she and her husband used to get $150 dollars a night from BMI to go out to various places, write down the names of the songs the musicians were playing, and forward it to BMI so they could follow up with a letter to cease having live music or pay the fee.

2016: I approached a local restaurant owner about live music. He said he wanted to do it, but was afraid of getting hit by the music rights management agency. The fee was too high for him so he refused to do it -- until I offered to write 3 hours of original music. We advertised it heavily, and sure enough, he got a phone call from BMI. The restaurant owner told them it was all original music, and it went away. But at one of our gigs, a man approached us and asked for our set list. We said we didn't have one, as we just called the tunes we were playing, and they were all original so he wouldn't have recognized them anyway. He left us alone.

2017: I approached a wine bar about having a jazz duo. They said they didn't want to do it because the fee they have to pay to have live music was too expensive. I told them about our original music but they were too afraid to do it.

So, the music rights management companies are alive in well in my town. I keep running into them. It's a shame really. Playing these songs live keeps the songs alive. The keep the genre alive, and the music rights management companies are all but destroying live music in this town.

Frankly, I need to get to a lawyer about what is involved in getting a license to print songs without copyright infringement or public performance licensing fees.

Even if we set the free license at 200 seats (if this is even possible), someone would need to enforce the public performance rights if people started playing the songs in venues that seat more than 200. Laws are only as good as your ability to enforce them.... Would this be BMI, and would they disagree with eating their lunch by licensing all these songs for free even in limited seating venues?

The other thing -- I wouldn't want to limit the songs I wrote to only small venues. I would want them to be played in crowds bigger than that. It's when its played at a stadium that seats thousands, or in a movie or something that I would actually care about it. That's why I think there's a case for giving up all the public performance rights, all the print royalties, and let the music percolate through the entire world like the Real Book did. Get fees for recordings and other non-performance, non-publishing sources. None of us are going to get our music out there otherwise....If it wasnt' for the Real Book, I never would have discovered Blue Bossa and a host of other tunes out there.

Anyway, until I see a lawyer this is partly speculation. But these are my experiences.





I hope that answers your question.

OK...Maybe the venues that I've performed in had paid the Fee(s)?
This is all foreign to me and my experiences in Los Angeles since 1988- present, and in Buffalo and Rochester, NY, from 1971 - 1988. FYI - I've never even seen a Local 47 (LA) Musician's Union rep at ANY live performance (NON- recording session, of course), checking for Union membership!
Thanks for the information - I'll keep following this Thread, and your upcoming "publishing" project. "Billable Hours" would be a great title for a tune, BTW.
Good Luck to you.
 
OK...Maybe the venues that I've performed in had paid the Fee(s)?
This is all foreign to me and my experiences in Los Angeles since 1988- present, and in Buffalo and Rochester, NY, from 1971 - 1988. FYI - I've never even seen a Local 47 (LA) Musician's Union rep at ANY live performance (NON- recording session, of course), checking for Union membership!
Thanks for the information - I'll keep following this Thread, and your upcoming "publishing" project. "Billable Hours" would be a great title for a tune, BTW.
Good Luck to you.

Thanks. I attached the actual licensing agreement from BMI a minute ago in case you read the previous post before I updated/edited it. You might want to scroll thought it. I learned a few things. I attached it again, here.

I know I'm not going to have trouble getting artists to contribute music. A 100% success/commitment rate with people who do music full time or are top of scene players locally speaks to that one. Plus the fact that they all agreed to jury in music. And one person offered to do formatting work if necessary in Finale.

The fact that Steve Swallow and Pat Metheny and even Gary Burton contributed their music to the illegal real book shows this. There are clearly factors that go beyond money that encourage people to contribute charts in hopes that others will play the music.

The hard part for me, is the legal aspect, the admin, a website that is simple and functional, and making the songs go viral. I know from trying to give the Jazz Canvas project a chance (the new standards music book) was a lot of work just to hear the tunes in enough detail to even decide if I wanted to play them.

Plus I have so much nuisance work in paperwork and other things, this will add to it. But it sure does excite me. I keep thinking about it all the time.
 

Attachments

Thanks. I attached the actual licensing agreement from BMI a minute ago in case you read the previous post before I updated/edited it. You might want to scroll thought it. I learned a few things. I attached it again, here.

I know I'm not going to have trouble getting artists to contribute music. A 100% success/commitment rate with people who do music full time or are top of scene players locally speaks to that one. Plus the fact that they all agreed to jury in music. And one person offered to do formatting work if necessary in Finale.

The fact that Steve Swallow and Pat Metheny and even Gary Burton contributed their music to the illegal real book shows this. There are clearly factors that go beyond money that encourage people to contribute charts in hopes that others will play the music.

The hard part for me, is the legal aspect, the admin, a website that is simple and functional, and making the songs go viral. I know from trying to give the Jazz Canvas project a chance (the new standards music book) was a lot of work just to hear the tunes in enough detail to even decide if I wanted to play them.

Plus I have so much nuisance work in paperwork and other things, this will add to it. But it sure does excite me. I keep thinking about it all the time.

ASCAP has their own set of licenses.

Invalid Link Removed
 
The era of "American Songbook" standards is long gone, it died in the 1960s when rock and roll arrived. Modern pop music doesn't have the harmonic complexity of those older pop tunes, certainly not good bebop vehicles although I suppose you could perform many in a funky modal style.

It was also an era where the song was king, a popular song was performed by everybody, including jazz musicians. Nowadays we have this cockeyed approach to pop where it's no longer considered hip to do covers (go over to the BG side of TB to read endless slagging of cover bands), so you don't hear everyone covering the latest Beyonce hit.

In the 1960 and 70s when "soul jazz" was at it's height, there were lots of recordings made of current pop hits and most are just as embarassing to hear today as they were then. Ever heard Ella Fitzgerald singing "Sunshine Of Your Love"?



Actually it might have been cool to hear it sing it with Cream backing her up :thumbsup:

This is great. I had no idea it existed. Interesting hearing Ella trying to sound like Aretha.
 
1. Are BMI/ASCAP royalty payments required ONLY when the printed (and/or published) written music is being used/viewed by the performers at a live performance? Is playing from memory exempt?
How about if the composition Title is never mentioned at a performance? How can it be proven in a court of Law that a tune was played? (This may be the Mother of All Rabbit Holes.)
2. I've been playing live gigs for 45+ years and have never had any BMI/ASCAP contact before/during/after a gig. Is this a "thing", nowadays in certain locales?
3. Yikes!
4. Talk to me like I'm Stupid...
Thanks for your time and interest.
I play regularly with a church choir. We have been asked to limit our music selections to the publishing houses where we have licenses.
Related to my comment above, there is push to play music that out of copyright, because of the control some of pub houses have.
Our local college radio station on Fridays has a lawyer last name olivas, who does "The Laws of Rock and Roll" segment.
 
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Well, we did something about this...you can get 9 new compositions in the jazz idiom by contemporary composers for free at newjazz.org. Free to perform, record, copy, share with others....like the Real Book but legal with new songs. The bass and treble clef versions are attached, and the Eb and Bb versions are coming soon.

A bunch of us talkbassers did it @Steven Ayres @Groove Doctor @Tonysuarezbass @Sam Sherry along with help from others you wouldn't know. We listened to over 200 songs to meet the criteria for songs we feel audiences will like and musicians will play. And then a panel of about 5 musicians selected them. Some were revised until they met our criteria...all developed here in discussions on talk bass.

They are attached in bass clef...and c versions for free, legal download.

MP3's of the songs here:

Invalid Link Removed

Get notifications when new stuff is added at facebook.com/todaysjazzbook

Looking forward to people's reactions on the website, the tunes, the charts, etcetera...
 

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Once recent example, the compositions of Paul Motian:
https://www.amazon.com/Compositions...4&sr=8-1&keywords=compositions+of+Paul+Motian

There is a vol 2, maybe not out yet.
https://www.amazon.com/Compositions...4&sr=8-2&keywords=compositions+of+Paul+Motian

And this:
https://www.amazon.com/Arranged-key...93272&sr=1-3&keywords=the+music+of+Carla+Bley

I'd love to have someone look me square in the eye, tell me they are serious about jazz and music and explain why time is better spent playing vapid Sting, Radiohead and Nirvana songs instead of digging in to books like these..
 
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Once recent example, the compositions of Paul Motian:
https://www.amazon.com/Compositions...4&sr=8-1&keywords=compositions+of+Paul+Motian

There is a vol 2, maybe not out yet.
https://www.amazon.com/Compositions...4&sr=8-2&keywords=compositions+of+Paul+Motian

And this:
https://www.amazon.com/Arranged-key...93272&sr=1-3&keywords=the+music+of+Carla+Bley

I'd love to have someone look me square in the eye, tell me they are serious about jazz and music and explain why time is better spent playing vapid Sting, Radiohead and Nirvana songs instead of digging in to books like these..

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Here's both volumes of the Paul Motian composition book.

The Library

Carla Bley's website has a ton of sheet music available to purchase, pretty much most of her compositions. Hell you can even buy Escalator Over the Hill! I've never bought anything through there yet though. Also there are PDF links for a bunch of lead sheets to Carla Bley and Steve Swallow tunes for free.

And something I personally thing more jazz players should do if they're looking for new music to play is to learn some Henry Threadgill pieces pre-Zooid. Those are amazing but definitely challenging tunes.
 
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I'd love to have someone look me square in the eye, tell me they are serious about jazz and music and explain why time is better spent playing vapid Sting, Radiohead and Nirvana songs instead of digging in to books like these..

Different strokes for different folks. There are no universals in music. No disrespect to a master like Motian, but if his compositions were on seminal recordings like those of Sting and Radiohead then more people would be sticking their nose into his charts. I'm sure i'm not alone in that i love to play jazz but am equally passionate about other, perhaps more mainstream styles of music(rock/soul/funk/RnB/Hip Hop).

Personally, hearing a group break out a rearranged Radiohead tune would excite me way more than most "jazz" compositions. But at the end of the day i don't see it as needing to be ranked...just listen to what you gravitate to.
 
And something I personally thing more jazz players should do if they're looking for new music to play is to learn some Henry Threadgill pieces pre-Zooid. Those are amazing but definitely challenging tunes.
Pre-Zooid is right. bass guitar, but this is an amazing version of this Threadgill tune:


Original with the great Fred Hopkins on bass and Deirdre Murray on 'cello:
 
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Personally, hearing a group break out a rearranged Radiohead tune would excite me way more than most "jazz" compositions. But at the end of the day i don't see it as needing to be ranked...just listen to what you gravitate to.
If you really feel that way, you should just go have a rock band. A serious jazz musician cannot argue that it is a a better vehicle for improvisation or even jazz instrumentation than the long list of available jazz material. You are right, different strokes for different folks. A Radiohead cover band is going to make more money and be easier to get gigs, so if that is your thing, don't bother with jazz. When we say most jazz compositions we are saying the entire catalogs of:
Mingus
Ellington
Monk
Parker
Coltrane
Silver
Bley
Swallow
Holland
Wheeler
Hope
Nichols
Burton
And on and on. Better research needed. Nobody who is seriously interested in jazz would say that. Of course it is an internet forum, which is different than looking someone in the eye an making such assertion. The only reasons to resort to that material are either commercial or social - which is fine, just be honest.
 
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Re-Zooid is right. bass guitar, but this is an amazing version of this Threadgill tune:


Original with the great Fred Hopkins on bass and Deirdre Murray on 'cello:

"Roooxxxxxxxx-Anne....You don't have to put on the red light...." Would fit nicely over this "standard".
How Ironic.
(Not much of a composition, IMFO.)
Thanks.
 
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If you really feel that way, you should just go have a rock band. A serious jazz musician cannot argue that it is a a better vehicle for improvisation or even jazz instrumentation than the long list of available jazz material. You are right, different strokes for different folks. A Radiohead cover band is going to make more money and be easier to get gigs, so if that is your thing, don't bother with jazz. When we say most jazz compositions we are saying the entire catalogs of:
Mingus
Ellington
Monk
Parker
Coltrane
Silver
Bley
Swallow
Holland
Wheeler
Hope
Nichols
Burton
And on and on. Better research needed. Nobody who is seriously interested in jazz would say that. Of course it is an internet forum, which is different than looking someone in the eye an making such assertion. The only reasons to resort to that material are either commercial or social - which is fine, just be honest.

My eyes have literally fallen out of my head and are rolling down the hallway. You never fail to disappoint, lol.
 
The main reason there are so few new standards is that jazz just is not as popular.

I saw Paul Just a few months ago - a vocalist who played with a piano and string bass. He did everything from Real Book tunes, to Beatles, to original tunes, to mood pieces. He also engaged the audience between songs. Virtuoso musicians, great material, and two shows that night there were about people in a small club.
 
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If you think jazz is worn out music, you are not listening to the good stuff.
Virtually the only "good stuff" I hear is old stuff. All the new stuff I hear on college jazz radio is Jamey Aebersold-tainted garbage. Swear-to-God, I want to strangle every alto player I hear playing like that. Pointless funky jamming of a chorus-y guitar over a slapped bass... still jazz? Recently, I've heard a couple acts put in a full day's work on the jazz thing like The Bad Plus but they are far in the minority.

You'd probably take exception of my estimation that rock died in 2007, then. Sorry - started smelling funny in 2007.
 
Virtually the only "good stuff" I hear is old stuff. All the new stuff I hear on college jazz radio is Jamey Aebersold-tainted garbage. Swear-to-God, I want to strangle every alto player I hear playing like that. Pointless funky jamming of a chorus-y guitar over a slapped bass... still jazz? Recently, I've heard a couple acts put in a full day's work on the jazz thing like The Bad Plus but they are far in the minority.

You'd probably take exception of my estimation that rock died in 2007, then. Sorry - started smelling funny in 2007.

Most college radio is garbage, regardless of the genre. Too many people trying to be unique and play stuff no one else does (there is a rteason no one else plays it - it sucks). There have to be some jazz clubs. If Lisa Fischer is ever near you, you have to see her. She is the female vocalist that tours with the Stones, but she is incredible on her own.

This is coming from someone who primarily likes rock.
 
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The main reason there are so few new standards is that jazz just is not as popular.

Part of it is lack of availability of sheet music of the latest tunes.

Sure, whenever I say that, purists say "well get transcribing then, it's good for your ear"". But the fact is, for most gigs now, we want to throw down a chart and the band plays it. There isn't time for transcribing. If it requires rehearsal or anything, it has to be a special bunch of people with strong interest in the music to do so.

The current stars on the scene (Linda Oh, Wycliffe Gordon, Ben Johnson and others) published a new book of standards called "The New Standards" (a pretty ostentatious name, I thought), and I listened to it (part of a project called Jazz Canvas).

No way I think I could get grassroots gigging musicians to play most of that stuff. Plus it was hard to listen and compare the chart at the same time. One of our Today's Jazz Book composers told me that he can't even get his own band (a bunch of talented guys) to play his own stuff from his CD because they are too complicated structurally for sight reading on a gig. So we had to simplify his composition for inclusion in the book. There was a great artist whose name escapes me, made the comment that "the more accessible the song the more people are likely to play it".

If we are going to rehearse new songs that are complex, it has to be music about which we are passionate, and for which there is some kind of lead sheet. For the group of people I'm with now, it's Pat Metheny's music from his songbook(s), or guitar trio stuff. It's arrangements of the Rippington's tunes, or tunes that are stretch tunes for the members of band, their new original compositions we want to test out.

For me, it's the availability of sheet music that everyone knows and wants to play, and it has to be relatively straightforward structurally -- like a lot of the tunes that are considered standards in my town. For example, not multiple coda's, not charts that conserve space by using Codas when simply repeating 8 bars would fix the problem (Real Book One Note Samba, illegal version, is a good example). They have to be readable on the spot.

The other way to get new standards out there, I think, is to get the music students learning the tunes from their music teachers, preferably in high school. I'm working on a program like that now.

I remember when I was in high school, someone gave us David Baker's tunes from his book of 10 of his original compositions. I ended up playing Bossa Belle and The Mirroir Noire for years after that in certain groups. It was a kind of standard for a while. All because we had learned it in high school. And of course, I think making the music accessible as we are trying to do with the TJB concept helps. We are still learning as we do that.

But I'll tell you -- you can't plunk a song with A, B, C, D, E, and F sections with a complicated roadmap onto a stand and have a quartet play it flawlessly on site as a gig most of the time. Someone always seems to make a mistake.
 
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