Double Bass Why Not A CCB?

[Steve Freides]

I've been playing upright for 8 (?) years but guitar for more than 50 years (and electric bass for 40+ years).

When I started playing guitar in 1963, you could slide your fingers, and sometimes your entire hand, between the strings and the neck at the 12th fret of a "beginner" guitar, but that seems to be pretty much gone. In my time, I've seen the quality of inexpensive guitars improve so much that I have no hesitation in recommending them. E.g., a couple of my guitar students have recently bought a Recording King "Dirty Thirties" guitar, which sells for $170 online, and they've more than adequate, they're instruments that play well and sound amazing for their price. I know they sometimes arriving in need of a setup, which is why I recommend to my students to buy them locally and pay a few dollars extra.

I've never owned a CCB, and that, I'm sure, explains my ignorance. I've owned "cheap" but they've all been OK so far. I started with a Roma from Ideal on 22nd street that I paid $800 for, brand new - worked great and is still being played by its second owner. And I own a 1/4 size Englehardt that also seems to work just fine and has held up just fine.

So, why _not_ a Cheap, Chinese Bass? I'm not asking that question in defense of them, but am asking the question quite literally, and as compared to a Cheap, Chinese-made Guitar. I will offer an opinion that I don't think sound can be cited as a real argument here because, as long as it plays and doesn't sound completely awful, if it plays then you got what you paid for. Is durability the main issue? Construction quality as it effects durability?

I am curious and not yellow (old movie reference) so please explain, and thanks.

-S-

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Ever drive a Yugo? If so, then you will know exactly why people warn against these basses. If not, then go drive one.... if you can find one that will still even start. Best analogy I can think of.

 

[bassmastan]

There are good ones, 1 in a billion maybe. To make them both stable and playable it ends up taking the same amount of money, if not more just to get something of reputable quality. Its really a question of whether you would want to drive a car of unknown origins and health, or pay a little more for the trusty toyota

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

I'm going to say "implosion" as Why Not #1, with "sounds like @$$" as Why Not #2.

 

[Steve Freides]

I guess I just need to play one of these to see for myself.

Chris, I have never driven a Yugo - guess I should be happy about that from the sound of things. My daily driver is an E30 BMW, 1991 318is, probably about as far from a Yugo as one could be. And a big, old not-so-minivan when I need to take the bass.

-S-

 

[drurb]

Really? We're doing this again? Steve, I understand the spirit in which you're asking but, please, please use the search function. Look for the threads in which people have returned here after years and said things akin to "You guys were right... I should have listened." Read the threads devoted to the stories of personal experience.

 

[Steve Freides]

I've read the threads, just trying to understand better. I'm a little slow ... In particular, I still don't get _why_ this is the case with basses but not with guitar, save perhaps the larger demand for guitars has caused the correct how-to knowledge to make it further down the price line.

With some other instruments, I understand the particulars, e.g., I know that cheap trumpets often have valve alignment problems.

IOW, I get what's happening but I'd like to understand why it's happening better. Then again, I'd like to be the king of the forest and that doesn't seem to be in the cards for me, so maybe this isn't, either.

I just went to ebay and looked at new guitars for less than $75. I found this

New Beginners Acoustic Guitar With Guitar Case, Strap, Tuner and Pick Black

Free Expedited Shipping! Receive in 1-3 Days!

for $34.95, and the feedback from users is quite good - everyone seems to like it. $35 for a guitar and a case and a strap and tuner and a pick with free shipping? I mean, c'mon, I'd never buy it, but people are and they're not complaining. What's so special about double basses?

-S-

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

To follow the car thing, you have a well made car that has apparently lasted long time. I'm at a place where I buy Hondas new and drive them until they die. I have a '97 commuter "go cart" civic and an '06 CRV. Keep both in the garage, and the way they're going, who knows when or if I'll ever need a new car? My bass is like that - I think of the New Standard hybrid as being like a Honda Accord or CRV; maybe not flashy or something you walk around bragging about, but it starts every morning and you always get where you're going without worrying about it. The Upton/Shen/etc. entry level ply basses that always get recommended to newbies around here are like good dependable compact cars by a reputable maker that get decent Consumer Reports reviews (civic, corolla, focus, etc.). You recommend these because they have proven that they tend to hold up if treated properly. In the guitar world, these would be like Squier electric guitars (I have a Squier Telecaster copy that's recent and a MIJ Squire P-bass copy from the 80's) - they don't have that name on the headstock, but if you can play, they'll do you justice and get you where you're going.

A Yugo, on the other hand, is not a car you'd ever recommend to anyone you liked. I can think of a number of cheap guitars that I could say the same about. Better to spend a few extra $ and get something that could last you a lifetime if you take care of it... and let you focus on making music in the meantime instead of trying to deal with all the things which tend to go wrong with the lower level stuff.

As always, YMMV, and EEMWCB.

 

[GretschWretch]

This is totally speculation on my part, but maybe the guitars come from different factories than the basses? And it's also possible that over time the construction even of the CCBs has improved. I'd check the dates of those other threads.

These things being said, a CCB still will be pretty far down the food chain of basses.

 

[GretschWretch]

To follow the car thing, you have a well made car that has apparently lasted long time. I'm at a place where I buy Hondas new and drive them until they die. I have a '97 commuter "go cart" civic and an '06 CRV. Keep both in the garage, and the way they're going, who knows when or if I'll ever need a new car? My bass is like that - I think of the New Standard hybrid as being like a Honda Accord or CRV; maybe not flashy or something you walk around bragging about, but it starts every morning and you always get where you're going without worrying about it. The Upton/Shen/etc. entry level ply basses that always get recommended to newbies around here are like good dependable compact cars by a reputable maker that get decent Consumer Reports reviews (civic, corolla, focus, etc.). You recommend these because they have proven that they tend to hold up if treated properly. In the guitar world, these would be like Squier electric guitars (I have a Squier Telecaster copy that's recent and a MIJ Squire P-bass copy from the 80's) - they don't have that name on the headstock, but if you can play, they'll do you justice and get you where you're going.

A Yugo, on the other hand, is not a car you'd ever recommend to anyone you liked. I can think of a number of cheap guitars that I could say the same about. Better to spend a few extra $ and get something that could last you a lifetime if you take care of it... and let you focus on making music in the meantime instead of trying to deal with all the things which tend to go wrong with the lower level stuff.

Yep. I have an '84 Toyota Corolla as my daily driver and a '93 Volvo 245 as my bass cartage vehicle. I doubt I could fit a DB in a Yugo; but I have in a Ford Mustang.

 

[Rebop]

for $34.95, and the feedback from users is quite good - everyone seems to like it. $35 for a guitar and a case and a strap and tuner and a pick with free shipping? I mean, c'mon, I'd never buy it, but people are and they're not complaining. What's so special about double basses?

I found the guitar you're talking about on eBay. I can't tell you how many people brought those in to my shop to have restrung or repaired. The positive reviews you see aren't made months after the purchase or by people expecting anything more than a toy. The guitar is basically a toy classical guitar that they put steel strings on. They pull themselves apart after only a little while. There's no adjustment anywhere for anything and the cheap brass colored gears in the tuners strip like they're made of soft lead. The bracing in the guitar is barely adequate and many of them start folding in half like a taco. That guitar is a CCG, but even worse. The Chinese basses you see for sale under 1,000 on eBay are on par in quality with the guitar you mention.
I've done some basic setups on those black ebay basses lots of the rockabilly kids buy in my area and it's really a nightmare to get them remotely playable. The paint doesn't seem to stick either. Just bumping the ff hole edge with a soundpost setter will take a nice chunk off. Lots of endblocks that aren't attached to the top or back and knots all over the place. Some of the cuts look like they used a hatchet. Don't even get me started on painted fingerboards with waves and warps all over the place.

That being said, I play a Palatino VB-009 for some shows because I can throw it around and have the band leader stand on it during a solo and not worry about it. It's a "stunt bass". I fell off stage with it once and the bass was fine (I had some broken ribs and a fracture in my face). After getting to know that bass after several hundred shows I can get it to sound pretty good, but it also takes 10x more effort than with my vintage Epiphone or my Czech flatback.

 

[mpf]

My chiropractor, massage therapist, acupuncturist, a couple orthopedic doctors, and several other health professionals have all benefited from my 5 years on a CCB.

 

[drurb]

...And it's also possible that over time the construction even of the CCBs has improved. I'd check the dates of those other threads.

That doesn't seem to be the reality.

 

[Steve Freides]

Rebop, thank you for the reality report from the field. It's an interesting thing that, on amazon.com, you can post feedback long after your purchase, and even if you didn't buy the thing from them, but on ebay, that's not the case.

Maybe it makes sense to compare price points - maybe a $200 guitar is about the same quality as a $1k bass.

-S-

 

[bassburner]

Last year I saw a band where the bassist had a CCB. It sounded perfectly acceptable in a live situation however when I heard the CD it was missing something. It was definitely not a tone I would want if I were recording an upright. Of course, that being said it could be completely true that someone had no idea on how to really record an upright. The reason I wouldn't bother with one is because by the time you get a full setup, pay for shipping and upgrade the strings you're most of the way to the cost of the student basses.

However, I'm wondering who here who says they would not recommend a Yugo has ever actually owned a Yugo.

 

[drurb]

Some stories:
Here. Here. Here.

...However, I'm wondering who here who says they would not recommend a Yugo has ever actually owned a Yugo.

I recommend never placing your hand flat on an active electric stove burner. I have, however, never done it.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

It's a durability issue first, an overall monetary value over the long run second, and a playability 3rd. For the money you put into it, its better spent on a lesser (but of reliable quality) bass.

There is a narrow place for CCBs: a show instrument that needs to be disposable or something used as a project bass for a beginner luthier to practice on. That's about all I can think of.

 

[BassFishingInAmerica]

This is as simple as I can put it:

I've played $150 basses and I've played $300 basses. Logic would say one is twice as good (sound, feel, dependability) as the other. In reality, one is more like 10x as good as the other. And when you start getting into the $500 - $1000+ range, the difference is even greater. It's all about how much bang you get for your buck.

 

[Adam Johnson]

I bought a cremona sb-2 used, from a local brick and mortar for $400 and a beat up fender guitar amp in trade... put a new set of strings on it and rolled with it. I play it in coffee shops, out on the street, and in church all the time. it has some dents and dings, but in the context of where and how I'm playing it, it sounds great. I dont worry tons about it. sure, once it made this strange buzz with a big weather change, but it went away and hasnt returned. Is it a super fancy hand crafted quality instrument? nope. but, it's fun to play, and for MY needs, works perfect.
And heres video evidence of such..

 

[Scooberto]

I've always been a firm believer in "you get what you pay for". That's not the case with everything in the world, but I would much rather pay a little extra for something than buy something to get by with and have it break down. On the other hand, no one ever said you can't beef up a Yugo and have fun with it.