Double Bass Why not pinky in thumb position?

[Les Fret]

Giuseppe Ettorre uses the pinky in thumb position some times. He talks about the pinky high up in his Thomas Martin youtube lessons.

At the octave is to low for the pinky but it is an option at the end of the board.

Imho saying the pinky up high is an absolute ‘no-no’ is old fashioned thinking.

Many are using the thumb in lower positions these days too.

Correct one should always explore the possibilities. I hardly ever use my pinky in thumb position but I am sure there could be uses for it. If it makes you play things that are otherwise impossible to play I would say go for it.

Do you have a link with the exact timing of the video where he talks about this? Interesting.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

Ettorre talks about pinky use in the beginning, then later shows using pinky in tp on trills. The rest of the video is about vibrato general use.

 

[Les Fret]

Ettorre talks about pinky use in the beginning, then later shows using pinky in tp on trills. The rest of the video is about vibrato general use.

ok thanks. Interesting. You don't see it too often. But I agree that it can be useful for certain things. Like big intervals where the 3rd finger can't reach the top note. The thing he showed was the first thing that came to mind also. Playing octaves on the D and G string with 14 makes sense. Another example could be playing 6ths like E C# for example on the D and G string.

 

[Wasnex]

Ettorre talks about pinky use in the beginning, then later shows using pinky in tp on trills. The rest of the video is about vibrato general use.

I think I would put that usage under advanced techniques. There are several points of discussion where he goes against or perhaps beyond what many consider standard pedagogy...but I think there is a lot of very useful info in this video. Great video for those who want an example of good vibrato and how to use it expressively; actually !!!!

Although I don't use hardly any of Giuseppe's technique, I feel like I can learn a lot about how to play musically from watching this video. I.E. there is much that transcends technique.

 

[Caro]

I think it depends on the anatomy of your hand and what the neck and fingerboard is like on your bass. If it's physically comfortable and makes sense in the context, I see no reason not to use the fourth finger. I'll often play an ascending G maj. scale starting on the open G- 01414134. It's good to use a variety of fingerings. For example, the same G maj. scale-01121423. The high G on both of those scales is stopped. When playing the high G with the thumb I stop the string. Of course the high G in these examples could also be played as a harmonic. It depends on the context. I very rarely use the fourth finger above the middle of the string. I can use it. Maybe I'll work on it.

 

[CSBBass]

As has been mentioned, there are occasional moments where I've found the fourth finger useful in thumb position. The biggest thing to be aware of is how you have to contort your hand in order to have both your thumb and your fourth finger on the same string--this is generally why it is not encouraged. However, at least with my hand shape, I can quite comfortably play double stopped fourths on the D and G string using my third finger and pinky without any unnecessary contortion/tension, as well as occasionally find passages where my fourth finger just falls where I need it to in a way that my third finger doesn't. The key thing is that this only ever works when my thumb, first, second and third fingers are on the D string or lower--those three fingers line up naturally, and my fourth finger can land pretty naturally on the next higher string in the same position as the third finger. Another thing that I've noticed is that this option only really occurs to me when my hand is in a compact position (fingers spaced chromatically, half steps between each one with a minor third between thumb and third finger). When the hand is more spread, the pinky just doesn't quite reach far enough.

I guess what I'd suggest taking away from this is that yes, there is a way, but only if you can do it without tension, contortion etc. Don't just do it because some guy on the internet said you can--there have been many more instances where I attempted a passage with fourth finger only to realize it was better to just work it up with a more traditional fingering than there have been instances where I actually stuck with that fingering.

 

[Les Fret]

As has been mentioned, there are occasional moments where I've found the fourth finger useful in thumb position. The biggest thing to be aware of is how you have to contort your hand in order to have both your thumb and your fourth finger on the same string--this is generally why it is not encouraged. However, at least with my hand shape, I can quite comfortably play double stopped fourths on the D and G string using my third finger and pinky without any unnecessary contortion/tension, as well as occasionally find passages where my fourth finger just falls where I need it to in a way that my third finger doesn't.

Exactly! There are some instances when the pinky can be handy in TP. With big jumps or big intervals on two or three strings. Or when you play a line that ends on the 3rd finger and you still need an extra not above the 3rd finger. You can then shift/slide the 3rd finger of course but instead of that you can also use your pinky. But the use is limited and not really the number one thing to master. However it is nice if you have an extra trick in the bag.

 

[CSBBass]

Exactly! There are some instances when the pinky can be handy in TP. But the use is limited and not really the number one thing to master. However it is nice if you have an extra trick in the bag.

Yes. I have been one to fall prey to the trap of overfocusing on interesting/handy tricks and techniques far too many times. It took me a while to realize that most of the keys to executing challenging passages lie in solid fundamental technique and good practice habits, and that all of the extras are really just icing on the cake when the basics don't get me where I want to be.

 

[Calvin Marks]

Thanks for the reply, but ... I still don't know why. If my high note is, say, the 1st harmonic, what is wrong with using the pinky to hit it? Or, put another way, why is the pedagogy against it?

It has to do with two factors, in my view:

1. The angle of the wrist: Unless your pinky is abnormally long you will really need to torque your hand and pronate your wrist inwards to use your pinky effectively beyond the G-harmonic in thumb position. I have used it in a few occasions when playing the Bach cello suites for some awkward harmonic passages when I've simply run out of fingers and my third finger is busy doing, something.

2. Various dogmas around what you can/cannot do. These are the same teachings that stated it "isn't permitted" to use the third finger prior to the G-harmonic.

I think it is important to have a proper framework as to how you approach the instrument and once that is learned to a reasonable degree you can start to add in various amendments to suit your needs.

 

[Les Fret]

It has to do with two factors, in my view:

1. The angle of the wrist: Unless your pinky is abnormally long you will really need to torque your hand and pronate your wrist inwards to use your pinky effectively beyond the G-harmonic in thumb position. I have used it in a few occasions when playing the Bach cello suites for some awkward harmonic passages when I've simply run out of fingers and my third finger is busy doing, something.

2. Various dogmas around what you can/cannot do. These are the same teachings that stated it "isn't permitted" to use the third finger prior to the G-harmonic.

I think it is important to have a proper framework as to how you approach the instrument and once that is learned to a reasonable degree you can start to add in various amendments to suit your needs.

Amen to that!!

 

[damonsmith]

I think there are often very useful tweeks in traditional techniques that can really be helpful. Other times, as in this case, it is more about proving a point and seeing if it can be done than actually serving the music.
People already play faster than the instrument can speak with the basic TP techniques. The best innovation in TP in the last century has been Petrrachi actually condensing things and making it more stable.
So, I think the real answer is that the primary issue of TP is not reach or facility, but: stability. Therefore it is not really helpful.
If someone can access new music with it they could not get to without it, it would be interesting. If not, it is "going backwards" in a sense!

Also, many teachers, Bertram Turetzky and myself included recommend 123 at the heel!

 

[turf3]

I think there are often very useful tweeks in traditional techniques that can really be helpful. Other times, as in this case, it is more about proving a point and seeing if it can be done than actually serving the music.
People already play faster than the instrument can speak with the basic TP techniques. The best innovation in TP in the last century has been Petrrachi actually condensing things and making it more stable.
So, I think the real answer is that the primary issue of TP is not reach or facility, but: stability. Therefore it is not really helpful.
If someone can access new music with it they could not get to without it, it would be interesting. If not, it is "going backwards" in a sense!

Also, many teachers, Bertram Turetzky and myself included recommend 123 at the heel!

Hi Damon,

What do you mean by "at the heel"? You mean, (D-Eb-E), (Eb-E-F), (E-F-F#) on the G string being played 1-2-3 rather than 1-2-4? When I get to (F-F#-G) I play G with 3 but the other groups I play 1-2-4. (On my bass I have to tuck my thumb up out of the way on (E-F-F#) and (F-F#-G).)

 

[damonsmith]

Hi Damon,

What do you mean by "at the heel"? You mean, (D-Eb-E), (Eb-E-F), (E-F-F#) on the G string being played 1-2-3 rather than 1-2-4? When I get to (F-F#-G) I play G with 3 but the other groups I play 1-2-4. (On my bass I have to tuck my thumb up out of the way on (E-F-F#) and (F-F#-G).)

I should have been more specific accounting for D & Eb necks: E, F, F# is 123. For most hands / most basses the F# is more in tune that way. I tend to play Eb, E, F 124.

 

[turf3]

Hmmm:

Maybe when I have access to my bass again (long story) I'll try it your way and see what I think.