My teacher tells me that using the 4th finger when at the octave and above is a no-no. Often it feels like the most natural finger to use to, for example, hit the 1st harmonic. What is the reason it's not to be used?
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Double Bass Why not pinky in thumb position?
- Thread starter AGCurry
- Start date
Giuseppe Ettorre uses the pinky in thumb position some times. He talks about the pinky high up in his Thomas Martin youtube lessons.
At the octave is to low for the pinky but it is an option at the end of the board.
Imho saying the pinky up high is an absolute ‘no-no’ is old fashioned thinking.
Many are using the thumb in lower positions these days too.
At the octave is to low for the pinky but it is an option at the end of the board.
Imho saying the pinky up high is an absolute ‘no-no’ is old fashioned thinking.
Many are using the thumb in lower positions these days too.
Thanks for the reply, but ... I still don't know why. If my high note is, say, the 1st harmonic, what is wrong with using the pinky to hit it? Or, put another way, why is the pedagogy against it?
Using the pinky forces an angle of the wrist. Without it, the 3 other fingers align naturally with the thumb resting at the octave
This is NOT Thumb Position, IMO.
It may be approaching TP, but the Thumb is still not "on" the String - it is still touching the Neck or the Heel.
(However, NO harm using Pinky to touch the 1st Partial Harmonic. IMO.)
IMO.
What you can and cannot do...
Your teacher is probably telling you what the "proper classical" technic is. Which is good, and I would recommend doing it the way he wants it, whenever you are taking lessons with him/her. I like to say to my student that proper technic is there only so that you don't hurt yourself. But if it sounds good who am I to judge you? But if you ever feel like some problem are rising, then you may think twice.
But here is the thing, the human body has many variations and everyone is built differently. I can't do it, even if I'd like to, my hand are way too small and it just doesn't feel right. But if it works for you, good for you. I don't know what is your level of self-consciousness. But I would advise you to be very in "symbiose" with your body just to make sure you are not developing any problem. In the end, you are the one living with your decision and if there is no consequence, who cares!
I've seen it from the other side, teacher telling me to play a certain way. But the more I played that way, the more I was hurting my hand...
Your teacher is probably telling you what the "proper classical" technic is. Which is good, and I would recommend doing it the way he wants it, whenever you are taking lessons with him/her. I like to say to my student that proper technic is there only so that you don't hurt yourself. But if it sounds good who am I to judge you? But if you ever feel like some problem are rising, then you may think twice.
But here is the thing, the human body has many variations and everyone is built differently. I can't do it, even if I'd like to, my hand are way too small and it just doesn't feel right. But if it works for you, good for you. I don't know what is your level of self-consciousness. But I would advise you to be very in "symbiose" with your body just to make sure you are not developing any problem. In the end, you are the one living with your decision and if there is no consequence, who cares!
I've seen it from the other side, teacher telling me to play a certain way. But the more I played that way, the more I was hurting my hand...
I used my pinky in thumb position for one or two pieces in college, to double stop a fourth with the third finger. I remember one piece with a fast passage where it made since to hold the double stop with those fingers so the rest of the notes could follow in position. It's a thing that can be done, but it's real cramped up like that, and there's almost always a better way.
Piggybacking on what Don posted, when you are truly in thumb position, your hand is turned to where your thumb, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd fingers all essentially line up. You cannot bring your pinky into alignment with the rest of those fingers without seriously compromising your hand shape. Just hold your hand in front of you and try it, and you'll see what I mean.
EDIT: And I just saw @The Biz 's post--I'm saying the same thing he is.
EDIT: And I just saw @The Biz 's post--I'm saying the same thing he is.
I am with The Biz, Don and Lee here. Even for fingering F sharp below the octave G a short little finger will pull away from the fingerboard and the 3rd (ring) finger aligns more comfortably. I would prefer to use the 3rd finger over the pinkie for higher harmonics when necessary too.
My simple comfort test for shaping the hand, fingers and thumb is to face a mirror and do a glissando up and down the G string from the nut to the end of the board (and the harmonics beyond). The pinkie will pull away naturally from the strings if you maintain the alignment of forearm, wrist, hand and bridging fingers while other things change to accommodate the transitioning (gliding?) into Thumb position and back.
My simple comfort test for shaping the hand, fingers and thumb is to face a mirror and do a glissando up and down the G string from the nut to the end of the board (and the harmonics beyond). The pinkie will pull away naturally from the strings if you maintain the alignment of forearm, wrist, hand and bridging fingers while other things change to accommodate the transitioning (gliding?) into Thumb position and back.
I agree with what you mean
. But perhaps some clarification would help.I believe you are defining thumb position as a certain range. If I remember correctly, per Simandl you go into thumb position with the thumb on the 1st harmonic. So thumb position is associated with a range.
But other methods assume thumb thumb is a hand technique, where you use the thumb to stop the string. You can go into thumb position way below the 1st harmonic. For an example, watch the bassist in the center of this ensemble (I believe the player is Daniele Roccato).
I think this video also does a fairly good job of showing why the pinkie not very useful in thumb position. Again, watch the center player when he is using thumb technique and notice the alignment between is pinkie and the fingers he is actually using.
Of course every person's hand is different, so if @AGCurry finds the pinkie useful in thumb position, I don't have any problem with it. But some respect and consideration should be given to the experience and training of the instructor, and if the instructor tells you not to use the pinkie it is most likely because he/she does not find it useful...or if he/she does find it useful, perhaps you are not deemed ready for that part of the lesson yet.
If I play much past the 1st harmonic my pinkie quickly becomes useless. But if I played a run that went up to G and immediately descended, my pinky would work fine. I would not transition into thumb technique for such a run, and I would not use the harmonic unless it was specified.
I think the technical reason that it's recommended (as a general rule) to play the G harmonic with your 3rd finger is that it helps when playing the stopped notes in that position. Here's why:
- Playing the note G as a harmonic and as a stopped note with the same finger helps you learn its location due to the repetition of doing it the same way each time.
Using your 3rd finger for the note G also means that you are already in position to play the notes F and F# without shifting or adjusting your hand shape. This can be helpful depending on what you're playing before and after the G.
A problem for those who are over-reliant on playing the note G as a harmonic as they may not be as confident of the location of the stopped G. A symptom of this for jazz bassists is they may often follow the G harmonic by shifting back to the lower position which if done repeatedly can stand out.
The key thing to remember is that we should choose to play the note G as a harmonic or as a stopped note based on musical reasons, in exactly the same way we choose to play the G an octave lower with the open G string or as a stopped note on the D string. It's all about the phrasing of a line.
- Personally I don’t think it’s a huge deal and I’m sure many of us will play the harmonic with our 4th occasionally, but that's my understanding of the reasoning behind using the 3rd finger as a general rule.
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I don't have the experience playing up high that many of the rest of you do, but I can say that for me, if I am up in "ordinary thumb position", in other words, I couldn't put my thumb around the back of the neck if I wanted to because there IS NO "back of the neck"; there's no way I can stretch my pinkie long enough to touch even the G string. I suppose that in some special circumstance I could shift my hand around and use it to lightly activate a harmonic, but there's no way it would have enough strength in that super-extended position to actually properly stop a note off on the fingerboard.
Now, if you have a bass with really cut-down shoulders, or you're playing "thumb position" much closer to the nut where your forearm is much more perpendicular to the neck, or you've got fingers like a bunch of bananas, your individual situation may be different. (I have no experience with any of these.) But the fact that the traditional default fingering is what it is, indicates to me that the majority of bassists have the same basic anatomical limitations that I do.
Now, if you have a bass with really cut-down shoulders, or you're playing "thumb position" much closer to the nut where your forearm is much more perpendicular to the neck, or you've got fingers like a bunch of bananas, your individual situation may be different. (I have no experience with any of these.) But the fact that the traditional default fingering is what it is, indicates to me that the majority of bassists have the same basic anatomical limitations that I do.
Nope.
Thumb Position is not a "certain range". IME.
I am defining Thumb Position as when the Thumb is touching and/or stopping the string, i.e., NOT touching the neck or side of the neck.
Thanks.
Thanks, everyone, for your excellent replies!
My teacher prefers that I finger that 1st harmonic with the thumb if I'm going higher, and the 3rd finger if I'm not. One of my problems is that the harmonic is heard over a stretch of location, so it's more forgiving than the stopped note, leading to poor intonation on the next stopped note, lower or higher.
My teacher prefers that I finger that 1st harmonic with the thumb if I'm going higher, and the 3rd finger if I'm not. One of my problems is that the harmonic is heard over a stretch of location, so it's more forgiving than the stopped note, leading to poor intonation on the next stopped note, lower or higher.
I agree with the last three gentlemen above but would add a few more comments.
Be aware, if you are not already, that the centres of the harmonic G and the fingered G are not quite in the same place on the string. The pitch of the harmonic goes up as you press down there unless you compensate by fingering a little flatter. There is also a difference in tone colour between the harmonic and the fingered note because of how the bent string leaves the compressed finger pad.
I always saw Thumb Position as a clear reference point, traditionally the starting place where the side of the thumb on top of the string first added to the 1 - 2 - 3 fingering possibilities. For both anatomical and logical reasons this has been the first octave G. During the transition from thumb-behind-the-neck to this new use the hand and fingers go from pointing across the strings to pointing more diagonally towards the bridge. The pinkie progressively pulls away from the string, the fingers 1 2 3 rise and the thumb begins to track diagonally down towards flipping over. This smooth transition is something important that we practice (or should) endlessly, eg F G A Bflat and down (2 fingerings), D E F G A Bflat and down.
You don't have to use your thumb up there because 1-2-3 can do everything that !-2-4 could do in the neck positions, only one octave higher.The last note that my rather long pinkie can press down is F sharp. A shorter pinkie would best use 3 (ring finger) for its strength and comfort. Context is everything up there but I cannot see myself going further than F sharp with my pinkie.
Be aware, if you are not already, that the centres of the harmonic G and the fingered G are not quite in the same place on the string. The pitch of the harmonic goes up as you press down there unless you compensate by fingering a little flatter. There is also a difference in tone colour between the harmonic and the fingered note because of how the bent string leaves the compressed finger pad.
I always saw Thumb Position as a clear reference point, traditionally the starting place where the side of the thumb on top of the string first added to the 1 - 2 - 3 fingering possibilities. For both anatomical and logical reasons this has been the first octave G. During the transition from thumb-behind-the-neck to this new use the hand and fingers go from pointing across the strings to pointing more diagonally towards the bridge. The pinkie progressively pulls away from the string, the fingers 1 2 3 rise and the thumb begins to track diagonally down towards flipping over. This smooth transition is something important that we practice (or should) endlessly, eg F G A Bflat and down (2 fingerings), D E F G A Bflat and down.
You don't have to use your thumb up there because 1-2-3 can do everything that !-2-4 could do in the neck positions, only one octave higher.The last note that my rather long pinkie can press down is F sharp. A shorter pinkie would best use 3 (ring finger) for its strength and comfort. Context is everything up there but I cannot see myself going further than F sharp with my pinkie.
The hitting the octave harmonic when it is the highest note is totally fine. The reason it is not used in TP, as others have said has to do with the best angles for using our hand and wrist. Also, you don't need it. The range of the chromatic and diatonic positions give us more than we need.
Okay then that range of the bass could definitely be in thumb position. Totally the choice of the player.
NOT when it (the 1st Partial Harmonic) is played with the Pinky, as the OP first stated. Thumb Position is defined by the Thumb stopping (or touching) the string - the "range..."is irrelevant to the definition.
Any note can be played by the Thumb - If you play a note with your Thumb, you are in Thumb Position.
The OP was inquiring as to the convention of playing the 1st Partial Harmonic G with the Pinky - not as common or conventional as using 3/Ring Finger to either stop that note or touch the Harmonic.
Later.
I don't think that is too unreasonable. Your hand shape is definitely transitioning towards thumb position by the time you play the 1st harmonic. So perhaps it is simply for consistency and the octave is a point of demarcation that most people agree upon.
Ultimately I don't think it will make a difference if you move the point of demarcation up to G#, but there is a certain logic to using the 1st harmonic. While you are taking lessons with this instructor, it will be important to use the rule you have stated. Later when you are the master, you play it any way you please.
