Why NOT use stage volume?

[Vic]

...avoid running through the PA, except where the size of the gig/venue/audience demands it.

Yeah, and really, I think this is where the main point of debate is... clearly there are cases when a full PA is simply not necessary.

 

[Jack]

Playing mostly bars, PA support has never been a thought, however, we're playing a charity event Wed. night in an auditorium with 1200 in attendance and it will be the first time I'll be playing with PA support. A very reputable company has been hired to handle the sound. I know the drums will be miced, probably the guitar amps as well but not 100% sure.

I'll be bringing my LMII and both my Berg cabs. Based on Jimmy's post, should I be considering stage volume, micing the cabs, or going DI from my LMII?

If the cabs are miced, do both need to be? I see that Jimmy has only one mic attached in the pic.

If I'm going DI, do I need both cabs?

Having no experience working with professional sound guys, I don't know what the protocol is. My thought is to just bring everything and let them tell me how they want me to set up.

I would just set up your rig (both cabs) and see what the soundguy says. He may be willing to let you do your thing, or he may try telling what you HAVE to do. If hes a reasonable adult then you have to figure out what you want.

The advantages for you of a pre-everything DI is that you just get the sound of your bass, if your amp is just for you and the band then you can make it do whatever you want, or turn it off if you're in the monitors. The disadvantage is that everyone else only hears your bass and whatever the soundman does to your sound.

If its a post-eq di or a mic on the cabs then you have to remember that changing an eq setting, or a gain setting will affect the pa too.

Thats a pretty good rig, Im sure it sounds nice, why wouldnt you want to let the audience hear that? Talk to the soundman, tell him youre new at this. Personally I prefer a Post-eq di or a mic. (Ideally both actually) but thats cos Im in a rock band and my growly, distorty, punchy GK rig is as much a part of 'my sound' as my stingray. I sound too squeaky clean with a pre-eq di.

 

[Lync]

This is where the Bose systems shine. (The L1 model 2).

As much as I was against the Bose purchase, as weekend warriors we get invited back as much as we want to book.

Clear music that is not too loud is the secret.

There are downfalls with it, but overall it has been a win for the band (we have 3).

 

[Vic]

This is where the Bose systems shine. (The L1 model 2).

As much as I was against the Bose purchase, as weekend warriors we get invited back as much as we want to book.

Clear music that is not too loud is the secret.

There are downfalls with it, but overall it has been a win for the band (we have 3).

Those do look like kinda' cool systems. I'd love to hear what a band sounds like with them, but nobody in this area uses them yet.

 

[anderbass]

Hey Jimmy, I've heard Bowzer singing (allot of deep bass parts, right) and I got to thinking you must have one of the most uniqe bass playing gigs imaginable. I can kinda understand why he gives you grief about your stage volumes levels cause I'd imagine he sings allot of the same exact parts you'd normally be playing.

When he's singing these low bass runs, I've always wondered if you just double him, step aside or do you have to come up with an alternative (higher octave?) bass line or what?

Its gotta be kinda like playing with some keyboardist...

 

[Lync]

Those do look like kinda' cool systems. I'd love to hear what a band sounds like with them, but nobody in this area uses them yet.

You are basically a "stage volume" band. People always say that it sounds clear and we always get a good response with them, so they do work. After a certain volume limit though, they lose their magic in my experience. They do go loud enough to rock out and they fit our gig.

That being said, I'd much rather play through my Thunderfunk or V4BH with a 6x10 cab, but I am using the Bose for the gig.

 

[Lync]

Hey Jimmy, I've heard Bowzer singing (allot of deep bass parts, right) and I got to thinking you must have one of the most uniqe bass playing gigs imaginable. I can kinda understand why he gives you grief about your stage volumes levels cause I'd imagine he sings allot of the same exact parts you'd normally be playing.

When he's singing these low bass runs, I've always wondered if you just double him, step aside or do you have to come up with an alternative (higher octave?) bass line or what?

Its gotta be kinda like playing with some keyboardist...

I also think that would be an interesting gig...please tell us about it.

 

[bikeplate]

HI

Yea. Our band uses 2 Bose gigs when we bring in our own PA. Sets up in minutes, super easy. We play about 170 nights a year and its a relief not hauling around a truck full of PA. They sound great for vocals and guitar. I put some clean bass signal thru them but mostly use my amp for volume. My drummer uses a standalone sub for his kick. I think we sound great with them

Rob

 

[JCM800]

My philosphy is be as loud as the drums, and the stage volume will be fine. Whether or not the sound guy is OK with that is his problem.

I use a late 70's SVT or an all-tube SVT-II. Fills the room nicely.

 

[Johnny Mack]

My philosphy is be as loud as the drums, and the stage volume will be fine. Whether or not the sound guy is OK with that is his problem.

i agree with this. it usually comes down to the drummer, then i set my volume to match his, then guitars. this works well when we do our own sound with just vocals in the PA.

it seems every place we play that has a house PA, it is unnecessarily oversized. every soundcheck is the same thing, "can you turn down a little?"... "little more?" my amp could be off and they say to turn down more. and its not that just my rig volume is low, its that they kill my volume out front, too!

geeze, if i cant hear myself or think im not serving a purpose and might as well be in the crowd, i wont enjoy the gig. if im not into it, its a domino effect from there. sheesh...

 

[JimmyM]

Hey Jimmy, I've heard Bowzer singing (allot of deep bass parts, right) and I got to thinking you must have one of the most uniqe bass playing gigs imaginable. I can kinda understand why he gives you grief about your stage volumes levels cause I'd imagine he sings allot of the same exact parts you'd normally be playing.

When he's singing these low bass runs, I've always wondered if you just double him, step aside or do you have to come up with an alternative (higher octave?) bass line or what?

Its gotta be kinda like playing with some keyboardist...

I don't really double him. He sings to the singers and I play to the band. Occasionally I'll double a part he sings but it's not by design. Believe it or not, I probably do more overplaying in his shows and get away with it than any other act I work with so it's not like I'm being totally stifled. But he does complain about me because I'm in his range, although since I quit going for a brighter tone he complains less. If he can hear the bass as a pitch it bothers him, but I don't think he minds it as much if it sounds like a low rumble.

 

[JimmyM]

So more about this time alignment...anyone got a link that explains it fully in bonehead terms? Is this something that's only important in arenas? I certainly don't want to screw the soundguy by running only stage volume, but I know zip about it. Time to move onto the next chapter of class

We had a nice PA tonight but I turned up enough to do stage volume for the whole joint (it was still only about 2/3 of available clean volume in the B-15 stack..roughly 15w worth of its 25w and we were still pretty loud). Had to roll off the bass knob to about 9:30 in order to slot with the mic'ed kick but it worked. I filled the place, was pretty loud, and still had headroom. Still think your 500w amp isn't loud enough?

 

[Gearhead43]

Like anything, there are cases where it makes sense to do this and cases where it doesn't.

I've done lots of gigs as a sound engineer where I've connected a DI or a mic for a particular instrument and found that for that venue I didn't need it in the PA. Especially in small rooms. My outlook as a sound engineer might be different than most, though. My first concern is to make sure that the performers are comfortable on stage and sometimes that means that stuff on stage is perhaps a bit louder than I'm happy with. This can often be cured by not reinforcing that instrument or by just putting a small amount in the PA. If I think someone needs to turn down, I'll ask them politely if they think they could back it off a bit and still hear themselves ok. I don't ever tell anyone that they have to turn down. My philosophy of getting the performers as comfortable as possible and then building the mix around that (I'm competent enough to deal with just about anything at FOH) makes performers like working with me and generally results in good performances and by corollary good mixes.

People need to get out of the nonsense of taking a rigid approach to things. Musicians and sound people alike.

Man, I love you dude. Seriously.

 

[Gearhead43]

I don't really double him. He sings to the singers and I play to the band. Occasionally I'll double a part he sings but it's not by design. Believe it or not, I probably do more overplaying in his shows and get away with it than any other act I work with so it's not like I'm being totally stifled. But he does complain about me because I'm in his range, although since I quit going for a brighter tone he complains less. If he can hear the bass as a pitch it bothers him, but I don't think he minds it as much if it sounds like a low rumble.

Haha, maybe he has some low-freq hearing loss.

 

[JimmyM]

Man, I love you dude. Seriously.

That'll be enough of that in my thread, thank you.



Mark is definitely right. Being rigid can be bad. For a while last year I was insisting on a mic at every gig, but I ended up with some gigs where using a mic just wasn't practical for the short amount of time I had to soundcheck playing a crappy rental backline. In that case a mic would have sucked. So you use a DI and be a professional and don't make waves. Who knows? Maybe it won't suck

 

[JimmyM]

What mike stand/holder are you using? Is this a custom design or are they commercially available?

That is called the Z Right Stuff Z Bar. Only place I know to get them is http://www.performanceaudio.com/cgi/product_view.cgi?products_id=5469 .

 

[JimmyM]

Because it's too hard for a sound person to mix. (snip) ....However, any time you have a PA and someone out there in charge of "overall balance" it just makes sense to have them in control from out there... especially since rooms change in a BIG way as crowds grow and shrink as the night goes on... depending on how persnickety your band is on the overall quality of the band mix, as well. And they can't really be in full control if their system has to compete with yours, so that generally doesn't work very well. That doesn't mean it can't work, just makes the job harder as they have to try and balance things around the stuff they can't control.

IMHO as always.

I hear you. The one thing I've got going for me, though, is my ability to behave with volume. That and a pretty good sense of how I'm balancing in the room with everyone else once I'm used to the room. When I run stage volume I always run the room with a wireless to get it right. And once I know what works I'm locked into it. So in my case, it's perfectly fine to trust the FOH sound to me

 

[Bassmec]

You wanted to work out time alignment and phase considerations mate?.
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Well in feet per second sound travels 1126.5' for each second at about
20 degrees celsius. so its just over a millisecond a foot but then you have to take into consideration the diet of the audience. You see, if you where in a band with a big vegan following there would be a much higher proportion on methane in the air, so as methane is much denser gas the air impedance in the equation increases massively, throwing your calculations out wildly old chap!.
Not easy this sound engineering Eh!
Also as I am sure you are aware that tuning is also gas mix dependent, as with a light gas say helium people sound like "The Chipmonks", now with metane of course you have the opposite effect.
Thus being in a vegan band with a large following may cause you to have to tune a few cents sharp to counteract for this, Just a thought.

 

[Coelho]

lol

 

[pgk]

for time delay explained graphically go to the bottom of the page


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