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Why NOT use stage volume?

#81
JimmyM said:
Wow, how incredibly informative this thread is getting! Thank you guys for explaining time delaying the PA to me and posting links. I shall do a thorough review of said links tonight.

Vic, yeah, maybe 1000 is a bit optimistic for a B-15. But I've done 600-700 seaters no problem with stage volume so what's an extra 300? ;)

BTW, Bowzer is very intelligent. Plays a mean classical piano, too. Good guy to sit around and discuss politics and religion with. If you don't give him what he wants onstage, though, he'll make you cry and hate life.
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According to his bio, he attended Julliard at 12 and graduated Magna Cum Laude from Columbia!! :eek:
 
#84
SwamiRob said:
Depends on your definition of accurate, I'd see my NV215 having the 15 and the midrange drive miced up as accurate, cos I regard my amplifier and cabinet as being part of my instrument. Others don't see their amp as part of their instrument so a DI is more accurate. All depends on personal preference, sometimes it's impractical to use a mic yes, but I have to say I've never heard bass feedback live even when miced.
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Link Removed

You're welcome. :D
 
#85
I said live!!! :p

Gotta love the bass feedback though (y'know when you WANT it), can't get it with my old rig though, can wait to get my NV215 alive and well again so I can do some more dominating, floor rumbling, probably rather dangerous low end feedback. Just need to make sure I'm not too close to my mid driver cos that thing screamed bloody murder when I didn't pay attention to where my pickup was when I cranked the gain knob...
 
#89
Cool thread. I've always wondered why so many people on here seemed so against the idea of a band carrying the room instead of the PA. I've seen plenty of bands (heavy bands) that have been blasting on stage and the PA was mostly for drums and vocals with the guitars and bass being low priority in the PA. Always sounded great, the tone, the mix, everything. But the tones that are desirable in heavy music are very different than that of most other genres... so, it certainly doesn't apply to everyone, or every genre I guess.

Just don't see anything wrong with a band wanting to go that route if they feel like having that much equipment or whatever. I'd just talk to the soundguy before hand and explain what we wanted to do.
 
#90
Metal Matt said:
Cool thread. I've always wondered why so many people on here seemed so against the idea of a band carrying the room instead of the PA. I've seen plenty of bands (heavy bands) that have been blasting on stage and the PA was mostly for drums and vocals with the guitars and bass being low priority in the PA. Always sounded great, the tone, the mix, everything. But the tones that are desirable in heavy music are very different than that of most other genres... so, it certainly doesn't apply to everyone, or every genre I guess.

Just don't see anything wrong with a band wanting to go that route if they feel like having that much equipment or whatever. I'd just talk to the soundguy before hand and explain what we wanted to do.
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Absolutely, and if he gives you a legit reason for not doing it, you have to take him seriously and consider it before you tell him to eat it ;)

Also, running stage volume on bass requires you to be somewhat knowledgeable about EQ. For example, I did stage volume at a small theater Monday night, but the drummer mic'ed his kit. That means the PA was adding a lot of low end to the bass drum that bass drums don't normally put out, which means that my amp set flat was clashing and causing a big blur in the low end. So I had to roll off the bass knob on my amp to 9:00 from 12:00, which cuts everything below about 100 hz. All of a sudden it's perfect.

So if you run stage volume, learn a little something about EQing and slotting frequencies for a band mix.
 
#91
All you stage volume people are nut cases. Even if you're playing in a closet, you should have a 3 MW PA system with side fills and 24 monitor mixes. Sheesh, you folks are such n00bs.

;) :D :D :D :D

:hiding:


(...yes, I'm kidding...)
 
#92
Vic said:
All you stage volume people are nut cases. Even if you're playing in a closet, you should have a 3 MW PA system with side fills and 24 monitor mixes. Sheesh, you folks are such n00bs.

;) :D :D :D :D

:hiding:


(...yes, I'm kidding...)
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Boy, that new gig with Tom's magazine has gone straight to your head, Vic! ;)
 
#93
Metal Matt said:
Cool thread. I've always wondered why so many people on here seemed so against the idea of a band carrying the room instead of the PA. .
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Dispersion, dispersion, dispersion.

Every amp on stage has very limited dispersion above roughly 1kHz, so no matter how loud they are the dispersion throughout the room can't be anything but uneven. The reason for running everything through the PA all the time is so that there's literally not a bad seat in the house. Not having to crank the stage levels high enough to reach the full room is an added benefit. IME the only bands that don't run everything through the PA all the time are those who don't have a good PA and those who don't know how to use a good PA if they do have one. Unfortunately below the pro-touring level that's most of them.
 
#94
JimmyM said:
Absolutely, and if he gives you a legit reason for not doing it, you have to take him seriously and consider it before you tell him to eat it ;)

Also, running stage volume on bass requires you to be somewhat knowledgeable about EQ. For example, I did stage volume at a small theater Monday night, but the drummer mic'ed his kit. That means the PA was adding a lot of low end to the bass drum that bass drums don't normally put out, which means that my amp set flat was clashing and causing a big blur in the low end. So I had to roll off the bass knob on my amp to 9:00 from 12:00, which cuts everything below about 100 hz. All of a sudden it's perfect.

So if you run stage volume, learn a little something about EQing and slotting frequencies for a band mix.
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I'm not too fond of most soundpeople I've encountered, but I'd still never be a dick to any of them. Unless of course I had a reason. :hiding: I'd always listen on issues of tone, and I'd like to think that I have a pretty good understanding of how to EQ out any room problems I might come across.

As if I haven't posted about it enough on here, I play through a pretty excessive setup in a non-conventional band setting. Two 200 watt Sunn solid state amps through a 4x10, 4x12, 2x15, and 1x18 for my drum and bass band. No guitars, no vocals. The maximum volume I run at is 6... my amp still gets louder past that, but I never have to go past 6... We feel, and we've been told by people that the mix is perfect between my drummer and myself. I use this setup everywhere we play, which so far has been house shows in peoples basements, or vfw halls. Our last show was the first time anything of ours was going through the PA, which was the kickdrum. Not sure it was needed, but whatever we went for it. Sounded fine and everything. Smaller venue, probably like 200 something people max.

I've mulled over the idea of adding to my setup 2 more Slave amps and 2 8x10's, just for any bigger places we might play. If not adding 2 8x10's, at least using the rig I use now, and asking to be able to run full volume, and to be miced, and have the pa just there to sort of fill in anything my rig isn't filling in. I've heard other bands do this with good results and I've seen it done so many times that I won't let anyone tell me it can't or won't work.
 
#95
billfitzmaurice said:
Dispersion, dispersion, dispersion.

Every amp on stage has very limited dispersion above roughly 1kHz, so no matter how loud they are the dispersion throughout the room can't be anything but uneven. The reason for running everything through the PA all the time is so that there's literally not a bad seat in the house. Not having to crank the stage levels high enough to reach the full room is an added benefit. IME the only bands that don't run everything through the PA all the time are those who don't have a good PA and those who don't know how to use a good PA if they do have one. Unfortunately below the pro-touring level that's most of them.
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Right on. I understand that. So how about the type of situation I've described in my other posts... Band is blasting on stage, everyone is still going through the PA, but priority is given to vocals and the drums. Any guitars and bass in the PA is to just fill in the rest of the room. I've always thought that everything sounded great in this type of setup, so do you think there's anything really wrong or whatever with using the PA in that manner?
 
#96
My stage level has to be loud enough for my bass to feed back, period end of story. I run a mike and DI. I like the sound man to send the DI to the subs and the mike to the mid range.
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#97
Metal Matt said:
Right on. I understand that. So how about the type of situation I've described in my other posts... Band is blasting on stage?
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Blasting on stage is about as logical as breaking all your fingers with a hammer. Both will end your career as a musician, the former just takes longer.
As far as the material is concerned, metal isn't by nature louder than other genres. In my tour of duty of as a dB Cop I had far fewer problems with metal acts than MOR as far as volume was concerned. The usual weapon of choice in the 8500 seat venue I worked was one 8x10. Not that some acts didn't have many more cabs on stage, but they were for show to appease the gear groupies; most of them didn't even have drivers in them.
 
#98
billfitzmaurice said:
Dispersion, dispersion, dispersion.

Every amp on stage has very limited dispersion above roughly 1kHz, so no matter how loud they are the dispersion throughout the room can't be anything but uneven. The reason for running everything through the PA all the time is so that there's literally not a bad seat in the house. Not having to crank the stage levels high enough to reach the full room is an added benefit. IME the only bands that don't run everything through the PA all the time are those who don't have a good PA and those who don't know how to use a good PA if they do have one. Unfortunately below the pro-touring level that's most of them.
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Bill, as you know, you were largely responsible for me being able to get my onstage sound together in a way that pleased me for the first time since putting the 810 in mothballs 12 years ago. So I don't go against your advice lightly.

But after hearing how an amp that I always thought was way too quiet to fill a house (or even fill a large stage) not only fill a house but do it at a volume that left me with plenty of headroom, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that most of us have rigs easily capable of filling a small to mid sized room (possibly even a very large room) at a good volume and the vast majority of us are playing at levels too loud to not bleed greatly into the house, even when we think we aren't.

So I don't know what the message is here...turn down and get a tone we don't like so the PA can carry it? Put glass up? Or are we being way too anal about it? Bleed never bothered me before, though I didn't know to what extent our amps bleed until lately. So now that I know, I'm looking to make the best of it rather than try to fight the bleeding and make myself unhappy onstage. Which led me to posting this thread.

So from what I'm getting out of the replies, stage volume can only work if the room isn't too big, your PA isn't too far in front of your amp, you know how to slot instruments in a mix, and you don't want a lot of highs and upper mids in your tone. Definitely not something to go into lightly or just because you're hardheaded about your tone.
 

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