Why NOT use stage volume?

[JimmyM]

Dispersion, which with that rig is pretty narrow above 800 Hz. OTOH since dispersion is the only benefit from running into the PA pull the bass EQ on that channel strip down, and run a mic'd send, not DI, to capture the midrange tone of the speaker and spread it through the room at a level just loud enough to fill those areas where the backline can't. An intelligent FOH guy who understands what you're trying to do will likely be the limiting factor.

Aren't they always? That sounds like a good idea, too, especially if freqs over 800 are crucial to your sound. Me, not so crucial. I'm into a big fat ball of low end with just a hint of attack.

Bassmec, I'd say those 3 SVT cabs on stage right in that picture of the line array you posted would do a pretty good job of keeping up, but in a arena, I'd mic and run through the PA anyway

 

[4Mal]

Too many absolutes here. There flat out isn't one way of dealing with this. Doing it right means being fleixble in how you approach it...

Suppose it's a deep stage. with your rig, way back there ... There was an opener, week night, early show, no time to be moving amps after the opener.. Suppose you are supporting 'The Hot Club of Cow Town'. There are acoustic guitars', mandolins, tenor guiars with mic's & pickups. They have to be in the mains. The mains are flown way out front ... Are we going to pace off the distance between your amp and the mains, then delay the mains to get you in phase ? Probably not... so if you want to be in phase with everyting else you'd be in the mains and your amp would be essentially a monitor.

Given the potential music froim the above and Jimmy's rig, he'sd likely leave the 'Peg & P at home, take the URB and play a little bit away from the ensemble - but for a slab player like me, I would need an amp.

 

[gillento]

What mike stand/holder are you using? Is this a custom design or are they commercially available?

 

[JimmyM]

Too many absolutes here. There flat out isn't one way of dealing with this. Doing it right means being fleixble in how you approach it...

Suppose it's a deep stage. with your rig, way back there ... There was an opener, week night, early show, no time to be moving amps after the opener.. Suppose you are supporting 'The Hot Club of Cow Town'. There are acoustic guitars', mandolins, tenor guiars with mic's & pickups. They have to be in the mains. The mains are flown way out front ... Are we going to pace off the distance between your amp and the mains, then delay the mains to get you in phase ? Probably not... so if you want to be in phase with everyting else you'd be in the mains and your amp would be essentially a monitor.

Given the potential music froim the above and Jimmy's rig, he'sd likely leave the 'Peg & P at home, take the URB and play a little bit away from the ensemble - but for a slab player like me, I would need an amp.

Never thought of that. OTOH, how crucial is is to be perfectly time aligned? All of us in the band set up our speakers different distances away from the front of the stage, and the PA was out in front of us, yet I got no issues that I noticed. To be honest, nobody has ever sat me down and shown me the difference when it's all time aligned, but I remember when time alignment was unheard of and things always seemed to work out.

 

[One Drop]

Like anything, there are cases where it makes sense to do this and cases where it doesn't.

I've done lots of gigs as a sound engineer where I've connected a DI or a mic for a particular instrument and found that for that venue I didn't need it in the PA. Especially in small rooms. My outlook as a sound engineer might be different than most, though. My first concern is to make sure that the performers are comfortable on stage and sometimes that means that stuff on stage is perhaps a bit louder than I'm happy with. This can often be cured by not reinforcing that instrument or by just putting a small amount in the PA. If I think someone needs to turn down, I'll ask them politely if they think they could back it off a bit and still hear themselves ok. I don't ever tell anyone that they have to turn down. My philosophy of getting the performers as comfortable as possible and then building the mix around that (I'm competent enough to deal with just about anything at FOH) makes performers like working with me and generally results in good performances and by corollary good mixes.

People need to get out of the nonsense of taking a rigid approach to things. Musicians and sound people alike.

Great attitude, it must be very pleasant to have you working the sound o a gig.

The bar we play most often is a 400 capacity low ceilinged wooden room, great for sound with a few angles to break things u and acoustic tiles on the windows. I get way better tone with my bass running through my Bergs and/or Bag Ends than I would from the average subs and basic mixing decks available to us, and all over the room. The drummer is loud so the stage volume is high anyway, not much to do about that.

I've heard other bands use my rig and the bass sounds and feels like it is coming through a state-of-the art PA, and I can make EQ adjustments on the fly without screwing up the FOH mix. Win/win situation in this case.

In a big hall you usually don't hear much bass out front IME, I can't believe it's that hard to get a good FOH tone without killing the bass on stage, but I'm no soundman so I might just be talking out of my (b)ass.

 

[Bassmec]

Aren't they always? That sounds like a good idea, too, especially if freqs over 800 are crucial to your sound. Me, not so crucial. I'm into a big fat ball of low end with just a hint of attack.

Bassmec, I'd say those 3 SVT cabs on stage right in that picture of the line array you posted would do a pretty good job of keeping up, but in a arena, I'd mic and run through the PA anyway

Its actually four Svts Jimmy you cant see the other one in the pic. and we do mic it up on two of the cabs just incase one fails.
Want a close up of that DW Lake superior kit, anybody into tub thumping:

Not even I can make that sound ****!.
Playing with my new amp, well its not quite new its 1968 vintage I discover.
Just finished recapping it, Its a 100 Watt 4 x el 34 Matamp custom with real 5U4G tube rectumfires and sodding great partridge transformers and choke.
Might just give your vintage ampeg piggyback rig a run for its money
tone wise into an old Altec alnico driver'd Ampeg 115.
Still using tube rectifiers in there Jimmy?. I know you can get silicon replacements but they don't sound the same to me.
I love that slight sponginess they give.

 

[Vic]

So now I'm thinking that maybe running stage volume in smaller venues isn't such a bad thing. I asked about this a while back and the idea was shot down by everyone, but when you have a rig you love in every way, why wouldn't you want that sound going directly into the house? Naturally you'd do larger gigs with PA, but in a small room of up to 1000, why not? You would only have one point source for the bass, which greatly reduces comb filtering, and it sounds as good or better than any PA I've run through, so why not?

Because it's too hard for a sound person to mix. If they had remote controls so they could adjust your rig, the guitar player's rig, and the keyboard player's rig, then it probably wouldn't be a problem. A big problem also is drums don't carry very evenly... some parts of the kit carry LOTS more than others.

So in really small venues where a full PA isn't necessary, even if only used to balance sounds out rather than really crank things up overall, yeah, just have a buddy tell you who needs to turn up/down and it's fine. However, any time you have a PA and someone out there in charge of "overall balance" it just makes sense to have them in control from out there... especially since rooms change in a BIG way as crowds grow and shrink as the night goes on... depending on how persnickety your band is on the overall quality of the band mix, as well. And they can't really be in full control if their system has to compete with yours, so that generally doesn't work very well. That doesn't mean it can't work, just makes the job harder as they have to try and balance things around the stuff they can't control.

IMHO as always.

 

[pgk]

just in case the 25 watts the B-15N head usually pushes couldn't handle it. Turns out I didn't need it.

to each their own and everybody's situation is different and all that stuff. but i've been saying it for years; watts are vastly overrated. you don't need a ton of watts. it's a great thing to have all that reserve power with a 500/1000 watt head but that's all it is, "reserve power". 99% of the time you're likely never gonna use it all. if the music you play does'nt require mega-wattage find the most efficient cab/s you can find, ones that have the sound you like, and you can do damn near anygig anywhere with a low powered (30-100 watt) tube head. but the cabs Must be very efficient (minimum 99db and up). and keep a good bass cab mic like an re20 and/or a great di like a radial jdi in your gig bag and you'll never worry about any situation with a low powered rig. works for me and always has. as always, not for everyone and ymmv...

 

[Williamsburgjim]

Dispersion, which with that rig is pretty narrow above 800 Hz. OTOH since dispersion is the only benefit from running into the PA pull the bass EQ on that channel strip down, and run a mic'd send, not DI, to capture the midrange tone of the speaker and spread it through the room at a level just loud enough to fill those areas where the backline can't. An intelligent FOH guy who understands what you're trying to do will likely be the limiting factor.

Bill,

Forgive me for being a noob, but are you saying cut 800Hz from Jimmy's stage rig, then boost it at the FOH mixing board? Or, are you saying boost 800Hz at the rig, mic it, and let the sound guy cut the low freq. at the board?

Jimbob

 

[IvanMike]

Nothing wrong with using a rig as long as it works. Like one poster said, soundmen will freak a bit because 90% of players who bring a big rig won't listen to them if it is an issue and turn up too loud.

I use my rig in most of my gigs as the primary/sole source of my bass. even in some big places.

the ideal situation is where both you and the soundman are reasonable adults and get to have an intelligent conversation re: how to do your sound. When i turn knobs there are some rigs that sound so great i tell them to turn up and take them out of the mains. Other rigs........well..........not so much.

 

[Vic]

the ideal situation is where both you and the soundman are reasonable adults and get to have an intelligent conversation re: how to do your sound.

Yeah, I'm operating on the assumption you're dealing with reasonable production folks. Otherwise, all bets are off.

That doesn't mean you have to be best buddies, but it does mean you have a workable relationship and generally common understanding of the way the band should sound to the audience, and at least a decent tolerance for individual methods and habits.

 

[Rick Auricchio]

Bill,

Forgive me for being a noob, but are you saying cut 800Hz from Jimmy's stage rig, then boost it at the FOH mixing board? Or, are you saying boost 800Hz at the rig, mic it, and let the sound guy cut the low freq. at the board?

Jimbob

My understanding of Bill's suggestion:

Mike the amp, cut the bottom end from the mic channel at the PA, and just use it to add some mids to the mix. The onstage amp provides the boom, and the PA helps smooth things by dispersing the mids better than the onstage amp can.

 

[Bassmec]

Bill,

Forgive me for being a noob, but are you saying cut 800Hz from Jimmy's stage rig, then boost it at the FOH mixing board? Or, are you saying boost 800Hz at the rig, mic it, and let the sound guy cut the low freq. at the board?

Jimbob

Bill is suggesting using a band pass filter on the console, only amplifying frequencies above 800 via the PA if the on stage rig is doing enough on the low end. Above that frequency bass speakers don't do well off axis, IE. not right in front of the cone like the mic is, so most of the audience will miss only the mid/high so Bill says only amplify the bit you cant hear properly. A very good plan!.

 

[Tony-bobs]

Of the handful of different amps I've owned, you know why this one is my favorite?
Invalid Link Removed
First, it photographs beautifully.

Jimmy, every time I see these cabs, I get a funny feeling in my gutty-works and next thing I know, 20 minutes has gone by and my desk is covered in drool. So please, for Heaven's sake, stop posting those beautiful blue checkered cabs and sweet little tube amp!!

 

[vicenzajay]

Because it's too hard for a sound person to mix. If they had remote controls so they could adjust your rig, the guitar player's rig, and the keyboard player's rig, then it probably wouldn't be a problem. A big problem also is drums don't carry very evenly... some parts of the kit carry LOTS more than others.

So in really small venues where a full PA isn't necessary, even if only used to balance sounds out rather than really crank things up overall, yeah, just have a buddy tell you who needs to turn up/down and it's fine. However, any time you have a PA and someone out there in charge of "overall balance" it just makes sense to have them in control from out there... especially since rooms change in a BIG way as crowds grow and shrink as the night goes on... depending on how persnickety your band is on the overall quality of the band mix, as well. And they can't really be in full control if their system has to compete with yours, so that generally doesn't work very well. That doesn't mean it can't work, just makes the job harder as they have to try and balance things around the stuff they can't control.

IMHO as always.

Completely agree, Vic

 

[bikeplate]

HI

Had the same conversation Sat night. Playing a new club in my area with an amazing PA. They sank about 40k into it. EAW, Allen and Heath, P.A.S. etc. Got talking to the guy who runs the deal. He does sound all over the area and is a pretty good drummer, to boot. Not a meathead at all. Has done sound for our band a few times at different places. He came up to me before we soundchecked to say HI. He said "u might want to turn down tonight" I responded by saying "sure, why do u say that?" He commented on how last time he did sound for us, my rig sounded so damn good that he didnt even have me in the house!!! I had no idea and I dont even think we have a loud stage volume. He looked at my rig and commented that it didnt look familar. I was using my Epifani 502 and Epifani 1x15 and 2x10 stack that night he did it. This had to be at least 18 mos ago. The other night I had my Sadowsky SA200 and Bergantion HS410. I had the master on about 10 o'clock and let them pump me thru the house. It sounded HUGE!!!

Moral of the story is it can work well either way but I wouldnt leave it in the soundmans hands unless you've heard his work. Some have no regard for bass tone and it sounds like a wet blanket. You know the guy who gets your signal and says "got it" in about 10 seconds? Look out for that fool. LOL
You're sure to sound bad out front. Use your own ears

Rob

 

[Vic]

Moral of the story is it can work well either way but I wouldnt leave it in the soundmans hands unless you've heard his work. Some have no regard for bass tone and it sounds like a wet blanket.

True.

You know the guy who gets your signal and says "got it" in about 10 seconds? Look out for that fool. LOL
You're sure to sound bad out front. Use your own ears

Ehhh, I'd personally qualify that with your first comment. Depends a LOT on who you're talking about. If they're really good, they can dial in a great starting tone and pad level pretty fast... especially with the higher quality and better sounding basses that are "the norm" these days. The rest is setting sliders, which should be done when everybody is playing in a full soundcheck.

Besides, unless you're performing from within the audience, you can't "use your own ears".

Bottom line is, the band and the production folks need to BOTH be competent, and they have to agree on sound. If not, the whole system breaks down. Thing is, the band should always win... not in how to tell the sound guy how to achieve a sound, but definitely in how the band should sound.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Are we going to pace off the distance between your amp and the mains, then delay the mains to get you in phase ?

Yes. Delaying the PA to keep time aligned with the backline is standard practice in pro-touring. It's a necessity, because even in 10,000 seat venues some guitar'd players with stacks still run so loud that they compete with the PA, and if there was no delay on the PA it would be a sonic mess. In the midrange even a few ms of time shift is clearly audible.

 

[Vic]

Yes. Delaying the PA to keep time aligned with the backline is standard practice in pro-touring. It's a necessity, because even in 10,000 seat venues some guitar'd players with stacks still run so loud that they compete with the PA, and if there was no delay on the PA it would be a sonic mess. In the midrange even a few ms of time shift is clearly audible.

+1

I forgot about this one as well Bill (and 4Mal), and it's always surprising to me how you don't really have to get very far away to make a noticeable diff due to the relatively slow speed of sound. I noticed this when I got my first wireless years ago.

 

[blowinblue]

So now I'm thinking that maybe running stage volume in smaller venues isn't such a bad thing. I asked about this a while back and the idea was shot down by everyone, but when you have a rig you love in every way, why wouldn't you want that sound going directly into the house? Naturally you'd do larger gigs with PA, but in a small room of up to 1000, why not? You would only have one point source for the bass, which greatly reduces comb filtering, and it sounds as good or better than any PA I've run through, so why not?

You're preachin' to the choir here, mate. I wasn't one of the ones that shot you down. I couldn't agree more with what you're saying. I go out of my way to avoid running through the PA, except where the size of the gig/venue/audience demands it. Makes me sleep better at night, too.

M. M.