- Aug 5, 2005
- 7,243
- 92
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: J.C. Basses
Screw it, I'll do an A/B test and we'll see.
What's a good software for frequency spectrum analysis?
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
why replace your pots?
- Thread starter wideyes
- Start date
Screw it, I'll do an A/B test and we'll see.
What's a good software for frequency spectrum analysis?
There's something to be said for the snake oil theory where players randomly upgrade things just because they appear to be "better." But pots & caps are relatively inexpensive elements that can make or break an instrument. I would bet that far too many pickups get a bad rap because pots & caps were not addressed or even measured.
The biggest reason to spend more on a pot is tolerance. Cheaper pots generally have a 20% tolerance in terms of their stated resistance. So a 250K pot can measure anywhere from 200k to 300k and be acceptable. Why does this matter? Because a 200k pot will sound noticeably darker and slightly quieter than a 300k. So if you pay a little extra, you can get pots with a 10% tolerance which means more predictable results.
Caps are more complicated as you're not only paying for tolerances, but construction (paper in oil, ceramic, silver mica, etc.). There is no such thing as "best" when it comes to capacitors in guitars and basses. Yes, silver mica caps are the most accurate but don't always behave in a manner that suits guitar & bass pickups. Paper in oil caps have far greater leakage and degrade over time but oftentimes sound fantastic. Ceramic caps were used in all the classic Fenders but ceramic caps aren't exactly high grade either.
Here's what I recommend: get the cheapest plastic film caps you can find in several different values and test them until you find the one that sounds best to you in your instrument. Next, take that value and get a paper in oil, ceramic, silver mica, and a polyester film cap (like an orange drop) and see which one sounds the best.
Now, since 99% of those who read this won't go and measure their pots or try different cap values, here is your shortcut answer:
The biggest reason to spend more on a pot is tolerance. Cheaper pots generally have a 20% tolerance in terms of their stated resistance. So a 250K pot can measure anywhere from 200k to 300k and be acceptable. Why does this matter? Because a 200k pot will sound noticeably darker and slightly quieter than a 300k. So if you pay a little extra, you can get pots with a 10% tolerance which means more predictable results.
Caps are more complicated as you're not only paying for tolerances, but construction (paper in oil, ceramic, silver mica, etc.). There is no such thing as "best" when it comes to capacitors in guitars and basses. Yes, silver mica caps are the most accurate but don't always behave in a manner that suits guitar & bass pickups. Paper in oil caps have far greater leakage and degrade over time but oftentimes sound fantastic. Ceramic caps were used in all the classic Fenders but ceramic caps aren't exactly high grade either.
Here's what I recommend: get the cheapest plastic film caps you can find in several different values and test them until you find the one that sounds best to you in your instrument. Next, take that value and get a paper in oil, ceramic, silver mica, and a polyester film cap (like an orange drop) and see which one sounds the best.
Now, since 99% of those who read this won't go and measure their pots or try different cap values, here is your shortcut answer:
- yes, better pots and caps can make an audible difference
- change pots & caps before pickups
- use 10% tolerance pots
- Use ceramic or polyester film caps using manufacturer recommended values
- Go discuss how cheap instrument cables do/don't affect your tone
I actually just did this. I still have about 10 or so caps to go through but after doing a bunch of soldering the standard 2 dollar pots I bought started to go out
.I'm in the process of locating some Bourne pots as well as some more cheapie pots that I can burn out and not worry about. This way I can wire and rewire my bass and really see what does what and which caps I like. Right now though I'm a big fan of the paper in oil and NOS cap I have in there.
I also need to get a good multimeter. I know this is off topic but whats a good meter that isn't super expensive?
I actually just did this. I still have about 10 or so caps to go through but after doing a bunch of soldering the standard 2 dollar pots I bought started to go out
I'm in the process of locating some Bourne pots as well as some more cheapie pots that I can burn out and not worry about. This way I can wire and rewire my bass and really see what does what and which caps I like. Right now though I'm a big fan of the paper in oil and NOS cap I have in there.
I also need to get a good multimeter. I know this is off topic but whats a good meter that isn't super expensive?
Bourne pots are cool and readily available through AllParts. CTS pots are fine too and 10% versions can be had from ACME Guitar Works or GuitarElectronics.com. Just for fun go look up the pots from Allesandro (they're $50 a piece).
If you need a meter for occasional guitar/amp work, I recommend finding something you like at Harbor Freight. They work fine for this application and they're cheap enough that you won't cry if it breaks.
- Apr 20, 2009
- 2,618
- 4,664
- Disclosures
- Endorsements: your name could be here, Mr. Sadowsky!
The big names in good multimeters are Fluke and Wavetek, but not cheap. I have a Fluke 77, you might be better off buying a used one, that's what I did.
Wrong.
IMHO/IME, linear tapers work MUCH BETTER for volume controls than audio tapers. (However, they have very little effect until the end of the rotation as tone controls.)
Note that I said "IME" (In My Experience).
Those of you who are doubtful of linear tapers need to actually try them.
I agree with walterw completely on this one in that I have never seen a single person try linear volumes and then say that audio worked better.
$50 for a pot?
If you're going for that, I have some platinum bridge screws I'd love to sell you... Work wonders for the tone, mind you...I like the idea of exploring caps, though. Good suggestions by willsellout and testing1two...
I do hope TBers realize that many of their $$$ tone mods go up in smoke the moment the band starts playing.
Well if you really want to expand on that you could say the same about all the Sadowsky's and Nordstrand pickups and electronics. I mean no one but you will really know the difference once the band kicks in.
When you think about it tone is a trivial pursuit no matter what you are doing. We could all play SX's and Behringer and no one would be able to tell the difference live....but that wouldn't be fun now would it
I should have made myself clearer. The linear pot will still have some treble loss as you roll it off, but not in the same way as the audio pot. The audio pot increases/decreases logarithmically, or exponentially, which will also bleed off your treble exponentially. A linear pot is even-taper from start to finish, and so is the treble roll-off, so it sounds and acts more subtly than the audio pot.
You guys keep saying you don't buy it, and that it's wrong and stuff- install one and tell me otherwise, I dare you. Nobody will pick an audio pot over a linear one after hearing it.
How many "Why?" threads here are started not because the OP had a question to ask but because, deep down, he really (felt he) had a statement to make?
Perhaps the title should have been, "I'm not replacing anything on my bass because I can't hear the difference. You shouldn't replace anything on your bass because I can't hear the difference".
Perhaps the title should have been, "I'm not replacing anything on my bass because I can't hear the difference. You shouldn't replace anything on your bass because I can't hear the difference".
$50 for a pot?
I like the idea of exploring caps, though. Good suggestions by willsellout and testing1two...
I do hope TBers realize that many of their $$$ tone mods go up in smoke the moment the band starts playing.
Rationalizations for all kinds of excesses exist provided there is a market to sustain them. There are builders selling $5,000 P-basses and custom instruments costing ten times as much. Can the audience tell the difference when the drums kick in? Clearly, that's not the point.
Who knows, platinum may be the new titanium...I'm having my bridge saddles cast as soon as they clear escrow.
Thanks for the clarification. Sounds like you're saying the perceived treble roll of matches the volume roll off, and since the audio tapers sounds like the volume rolls off faster, the treble also rolls of faster.
Makes sense to me.
The problem is the need for tight tolerances on potentiometers is low, because they are user controlled and not specific. Meaning two pots labeled as being the same in taper or whatever can be WIDELY different, so much so that a 25k pot is really a 20k pot. Its not even a matter of doing an audio test. Its a matter of testing two pots to be the same, and then running a signal using each of the pots with identical signals through a stroboscope to leave out any guess work or perception problems.
Yep, same thing I said earlier.
Those of you that don't buy into the linear taper, try it out for yourself and then feel free to share your opinion...
This makes sense to me. BUT... it appears that most of the "good" brands make 20% tolerance pots. Most offerings from Bourns are 20%, with [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] being $12.50 and a 20% tolerance. CTS pots range from [Invalid or Expired Link Removed], based on the published spec sheets, and good luck on guessing which one you're buying. Only this guy is easily identifiable as a 10% tolerance, and it is audio taper. (Interestingly, it is only [Invalid or Expired Link Removed], a little cheaper than the 20% tolerance pot.)
Seems to me, rather than shell out triple (or more) the money for a more expensive pot with a higher tolerance, buy something a little cheaper, and buy more of them. You can measure them all for yourself and pick the ones you want to use.
For what its worth. I just happen to have two cheap audio 250K pots laying in front of me. Probably 20% tolerance or worse. One measures 246K and that is with 2%. But, the other one measured 197K, which is a percent or two greater than 20%. That one might be far enough off to be audibly noticeable, I guess.
I always appreciate somebody who puts thought into their posts as well as links! I should have put [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]in my previous post to show an affordable source for 10% tolerance CTS pots.
For the record, the Bourns model 82 has a much more pleasing feel but it's in a plastic housing so it's slightly more difficult to solder if it's already mounted in place.
Great link! Thanks! Can you decipher the numbers on the CTS pots? Do they indicate tolerances?
Ooh, easy there, tiger
I came into this thread with an inherent bias, hence my clearly stated skepticism in the thread starter. My hope was to dredge up discussion that might deepen understanding of what's out there, pot-wise. I think the ensuing discussion has been very informative, I've learned alot, and I hope others have, too.And how many TB'ers butt their way into a thread to post some disparaging remark that ends up being off base anyway?
