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Why so much sugar coating?

#21
I'm lucky, my band found another drummer and he is a dream to work with. In the past we've played with highly sensitive players, I used to try to walk on egg shells around those players. With our current line up we live by the philosophy that I would rather hear I suck at a song from the band than wiat for the audience to tell me. I don't want to sound like a prick, but I hope I never have to deal with another player who can't take criticism. We are brutal with each other, but in a pleasant way.:bassist:
 
#24
zachoff said:
I see threads all the time about "how should I do this" or "what should I do when"... I wonder why you don't just tell the truth and speak your mind. Maybe I'm in a weird band but when something's off we tell each other. If a phaser sounds like poop in guitar solo A either me or the drummer will tell the guitar player that a phaser sounds like poop in guitar solo A. If drummer plays a fill that totally doesn't fit, we'll tell him. If I sing dumb words they'll tell me. If a new bass sounds crap they'll tell me. Other way works too! If something sounds awesome we'll tell each other! Plus we'll record it!

Anyway, a mini-rant. I just think it's silly to play in bands with people that are so fragile that one comment can ruin their ego or something. Nobody does anything perfect all the time. Rarely, I'd figure.
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Most musicians are so totally insulated in their own little world, and their ego is so incredibly fragile, that the slightest bit of criticism could bring their entire reality crashing down on their heads. It's stupid, and it's why most original bands aren't worth playing in for a few hours, let alone a few years. But people accommodate the egos and let the drama and inter-band cliques develop. And then you have 99% of all bands in the world.
 
#26
I'm with those who maturely recognize that "blunt honesty" is often a lazy excuse for being a thoughtless, inconsiderate, ass.
Truthful kindness is not that hard, but it requires some self awareness and careful speech.

My rule of thumb for criticism is: be thick skinned when taking it, mindful when giving it.
 
#27
"Honesty is the best policy, but unfortunately, by deduction, dishonesty is the second-best policy." ---George Carlin

LOL, just kidding, but that's a funny quote (might be a little off on remembering how it went). Sorry, couldn't resist.

I agree, if something ain't right, say it up front. If something is great, say it, too.
 
#28
I don't know, a lot of "criticism" I hear is just ego ranting for the most part. Especially, "You're too loud," which almost always really means, "I want to be louder, no, the loudest." How can you be sure what you think sounds like crap really does? Maybe it's just your opinion and most people would disagree with you? Tact is coverage for those times when just maybe you're actually *not* right. I know, I know, it happens quite rarely, but surely you're not always right, are you? Isn't a judgment about music inherently subjective?
 
#30
Honesty is generally the best policy. The problem is that some folks don't know how to be honest - and tactful at the same time. These types come off as abrasive, jerks, @ssholes, jive mf's, SOB's and whatever other adjective we care to call them. These are the types that oftentimes find themselves with no band. Personally I dont have a problem with getting constructive criticism from a band leader...... but if he's an @sshole about it, I let them know about it with no holds barred and NO remorse afterwards. Example : Played a gig with a jazz trio a few years back in which the frontman (pianist) was "loudly" critical of my playing DURING the song and IN FRONT of the audience!!! He said that I played a wrong note on the turnaround in "Stardust"(I had in fact played the correct note in question). I played it off ; kept my cool on stage and said nothing - but when we went on break, I requested a one on one conversation in which I promptly ripped him a new @sshole. Got his attention - lesson in being "tactfully critical" learned. Never had any more problems out of him.

So yeah. Up front and honest is cool. But a generous serving a tact goes a long way and yields better results. Just saying.
 
#31
zachoff said:
I see threads all the time about "how should I do this" or "what should I do when"... I wonder why you don't just tell the truth and speak your mind. Maybe I'm in a weird band but when something's off we tell each other. If a phaser sounds like poop in guitar solo A either me or the drummer will tell the guitar player that a phaser sounds like poop in guitar solo A. If drummer plays a fill that totally doesn't fit, we'll tell him. If I sing dumb words they'll tell me. If a new bass sounds crap they'll tell me. Other way works too! If something sounds awesome we'll tell each other! Plus we'll record it!

Anyway, a mini-rant. I just think it's silly to play in bands with people that are so fragile that one comment can ruin their ego or something. Nobody does anything perfect all the time. Rarely, I'd figure.
Click to expand...

The reason is that if you do what you are suggesting, you run the risk of violating the rules of Talkbass and could receive a warning from a moderator. I recently received one. There was a forum about What's Your Desert Island Effects? It was basically asking what type of effects people prefer on bass.

This was my response:
" My desert island effect is no effects. I have never heard any that sound good on bass. I like a clean punchy sound with a nice fat bottom end. In my opinion, Marcus Miller has the best tone of any bassist."

Apparently, I violated the rules. A couple of days later, I received a warning from a moderator.
 
#33
zachoff said:
I see threads all the time about "how should I do this" or "what should I do when"... I wonder why you don't just tell the truth and speak your mind. Maybe I'm in a weird band but when something's off we tell each other. If a phaser sounds like poop in guitar solo A either me or the drummer will tell the guitar player that a phaser sounds like poop in guitar solo A. If drummer plays a fill that totally doesn't fit, we'll tell him. If I sing dumb words they'll tell me. If a new bass sounds crap they'll tell me. Other way works too! If something sounds awesome we'll tell each other! Plus we'll record it!

Anyway, a mini-rant. I just think it's silly to play in bands with people that are so fragile that one comment can ruin their ego or something. Nobody does anything perfect all the time. Rarely, I'd figure.
Click to expand...

You must have been asleep the day they covered the self-esteem thing.
 
#34
People can't handle the truth, and most musicians are too full of ego to handle any criticism, not matter what language you use. It's a lack of professionalism.

I worked with someone that we always had to tell to turn down. This person would almost never play at the correct volume. And straight out being honest and just telling him to turn down with no cushioning or "sugar coating" didn't help. Actually made it worse! Next practice, the subject in question was all pissy, sullen and withdrawn and then had brought a 5 watt headphone/practice amp, so we now could not hear him at all. Such an extreme! I felt like screaming "JUST MATCH THE SAME LEVEL AS EVERYONE ELSE!!!!"....but it was impossible.

I have found that the one area of music where you are expected to shine 100% of the time and are cut no breaks whatsoever is in classical music. There, music is a science and they have no time for bullsheet! You play badly, you will definitely hear about it and have an angry conductor staring at you if you don't shape up!

It's a sign of amatuerism when you can't take any musical criticism in the spirit it was meant! But 99% of all rock bands are usually filled with amatuers, so that's the kind of reaction you will get from them....that's why when I now feel the need to let someone know what they was wrong...I must sugarcoat it, use positive feedback and play every stupid mindgame there is!
 
#35
Rockmusician said:
The reason is that if you do what you are suggesting, you run the risk of violating the rules of Talkbass and could receive a warning from a moderator. I recently received one. There was a forum about What's Your Desert Island Effects? It was basically asking what type of effects people prefer on bass.

This was my response:
" My desert island effect is no effects. I have never heard any that sound good on bass. I like a clean punchy sound with a nice fat bottom end. In my opinion, Marcus Miller has the best tone of any bassist."

Apparently, I violated the rules. A couple of days later, I received a warning from a moderator.
Click to expand...

I don't know what your point is. I myself have received numerous warnings for other things. In your case, your post was probably considered considered inflammatory and they took it as an insult because you voiced an opinion that was in the wrong thread.

It's like wandering into a classic car show, taking a look around, and then telling all the classic car owners that you prefer modern cars. That probably won't go over too well, you know?

Don't think you should have received a warning about it, though. But that's probably the reason why you did. had the thread been called "Tell us why you don't use effects" it might have been a different thing. That having been said, this forum is a bit too PC and touchy when it comes to strong opinions. Best keep them to yourself.
 
#38
HolmeBass said:
Noted, and I've never seen any ear-blood in 29 years of playing. This is not 8x10 fridge and half-stack territory, I play through a 2x12 with a 600 W amp with the master on "3". Not even loud enough to drown out the club's stereo if they leave it on by accident.
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I was joking, of course. However, in the band I actually help run, everybody knows if someone's too loud (except for the drummer, of course), so if someone comments about someone else's excessive volume, it is expected that it will be lowered. It is never an issue.

It's not necessarily about volume, but balance.

But hearing IS very subjective. What sounds fine today may not sound so perfect tomorrow. Which is why playing with immature people can be such a drag.
 
#40
lucas vigor said:
I don't know what your point is. I myself have received numerous warnings for other things. In your case, your post was probably considered considered inflammatory and they took it as an insult because you voiced an opinion that was in the wrong thread.

It's like wandering into a classic car show, taking a look around, and then telling all the classic car owners that you prefer modern cars. That probably won't go over too well, you know?

Don't think you should have received a warning about it, though. But that's probably the reason why you did. had the thread been called "Tell us why you don't use effects" it might have been a different thing. That having been said, this forum is a bit too PC and touchy when it comes to strong opinions. Best keep them to yourself.
Click to expand...

I don't think my opinion was in the wrong thread. The OP asked what effects we liked. I expressed the opinion that I have yet to hear an effect that I liked on bass and I get a warning. Isn't expresses opinions but of why bassists visit this site? My comments were not rude or disrespectful. So basically it come down to semantics.
 

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