Why the bigger rigs....?

[JimmyM]

You ever know I guess.
I had some friends open up for Tom Petty and The Heartbreakers back around 2010 for a few tour stops and they told me that Tom insisted on them getting the full treatment from his light and sound. I thought that pretty cool of him.

Some acts opened for a long time before they became headliners and they remember all too well how crappy they got treated, and said they'd never become like them if they became headliners. Tom and the Heartbreakers were one such band. And then, some headlining bands figure they'll piss on the opening bands out of resentment over how they were treated. I saw The Police on their first arena tour, and they absolutely screwed the local band with a name that opened up for them. I saw that band a month before in a club and I thought they sounded pretty decent, but opening for The Police, they had one of the worst mixes I have ever heard. Not loud enough, very little bass, scratchy sounding guitars, vocals buried. Then the Police come out and the sound is absolutely slamming. It then occurred to me that they gave the opening band the "treatment."

You'd think Trent Reznor would be above that, especially with a band like Soundgarden. But like you said, you never know.

 

[OldFartBassMan]

I'm playing with a Praise band, with a PA only strong enough for vocals and acoustic guitar.
So bring one bass cab, it seems to do OK.
Invalid Link Removed

Seriously unless every else is as loud as you, what have you accomplished with a high powered setup?
Obviously, everyone (including you) should hear (and feel) your bass to play off of, but going the a good soundsystem should be the optimal way to go if you can.

 

[njfrese]

If the house PA has all the big bass bins to cover the bottom end, a small stage monitor amp should be more than enough to do the job, unless you have a band full of guys playing Marshall stacks at top volume or something like that. I just did a 350-seat theater and my 2x10 Epifani cabinet with Little Mark II head did the job perfectly. Smaller the better for me nowadays.

 

[Mark McClelland]

Ok, this might be a thread that will get me flamed, but lately I've been having this question more and more.

I see a lot of threads saying things like "I need a bigger rig because I'm playing bigger rooms or outdoor events...". And I'm not getting it. In bigger rooms or outdoor events there should be sound reinforcement that includes subwoofers and enough power to make the entire band fill the room, i.e. a bigger rig shouldn't be necessary. Am I missing something? I just played a venue that holds 25,000 people--it was for a half marathon and nowhere near full--but we had a prosound company providing sound reinforcement and I could have played it with my little 2x10 cab. As it was I put a 2x12 underneath the 2x10, but it was purely for visual effect--the amp's volume was close to zero.

So what gives? How come we're looking for big bass rigs instead of using the PA and the available monitor systems? I mean, I'd much rather have less to move and put all that load on the sound guy.

Ok, ready, go!

I've been saying exactly the same thing for ages. That 2x10 cab should even be enough for a stadium. It's. A Monitor. FOH and floor/in ear monitors have the rest covered. I even saw a video of Gary Moore at Wembley Arena. He came out and plugged into what looked like a practice amp. And yep. I think people are starting to cotton onto the AC/DC style walls of speakers thing. Probably only one of them working, the rest for show.

 

[sawzalot]

Reminds me of Geddy, when he toured with a bunch of washing machines as his backline.

 

[JimmyM]

Reminds me of Geddy, when he toured with a bunch of washing machines as his backline.

Geddy would rather use cabs, and did use cabs in between the rotisseries and the sausage grinder, but apparently his sound tech talked him out of it and he went with him.

 

[Son of Wobble]

View attachment 2776809
What he said.

The perfectly appointed bedroom, to be sure.

 

[Son of Wobble]

Geddy would rather use cabs, and did use cabs in between the rotisseries and the sausage grinder, but apparently his sound tech talked him out of it and he went with him.

Did Geddy return to cabinets on the most recent Rush tour, the one on during which he showcased his newly beefed-up bass collection? (Imagine being able to buy all those Fenders and Rics, play each on one song per night for the duration of tour, then deduct the lot as depreciating assets on your tax schedule? So much win!)

If Geddy's GAS trends the same general direction as TB's, he is likely collecting tube amps about now.

 

[Slackster56]

Ok, this might be a thread that will get me flamed, but lately I've been having this question more and more.

I see a lot of threads saying things like "I need a bigger rig because I'm playing bigger rooms or outdoor events...". And I'm not getting it. In bigger rooms or outdoor events there should be sound reinforcement that includes subwoofers and enough power to make the entire band fill the room, i.e. a bigger rig shouldn't be necessary. Am I missing something? I just played a venue that holds 25,000 people--it was for a half marathon and nowhere near full--but we had a prosound company providing sound reinforcement and I could have played it with my little 2x10 cab. As it was I put a 2x12 underneath the 2x10, but it was purely for visual effect--the amp's volume was close to zero.

So what gives? How come we're looking for big bass rigs instead of using the PA and the available monitor systems? I mean, I'd much rather have less to move and put all that load on the sound guy.

Ok, ready, go!

I started with an old 100w Vox combo - never got above 5 on the volume for the pub gigs we were playing. Any bigger venues we DI'd into the PA. I now use a 300w head through the same speaker ( on a budget here) by converting the combo box to a speaker cab. Never get above 4. What I found is that if you have a good quality speaker it will be efficient, so you get more from a smaller amp. I do sometimes have trouble hearing myself due to the acoustics. even if front of house is plenty loud enough, but that's a different problem. I might consider a 4x10 cab as a speaker upgrade - but I'd get away with fewer watts. The bass kit can already compete with the drum kit - if we ever get to miking up the drums, then we'll have the option to DI the rest. So I don't see a need for big rigs - put the money into quality kit and a quality pa / mixer.

 

[tree_trunker]

About 8 years ago, I started learning to play bass by playing in a Christian band on Friday or Saturday nights in our Church of Christ (believe it or not). I had purchased a used Carvin 2x10 and a GK MB200 amp. We played what our lead guitarist/lead singer called an "acoustic" set with his guitar, his voice and another guitar player going directly through a small Behringer PA that consisted of a mixer/amp and 2 speakers. I used my 2x10 and the drummer wasn't miked. It was fairly loud in the room we were "allowed" to lead a praise and worship hour in. A few months after we had begun, we were invited to play for a youth revival in a large school auditorium. That was my first experience performing where drums were all miked, both guitar players used their amps that were miked and a DI was used on my bass. I still had my 2x10 on stage behind me. All of us had a small monitor with a 12" woofer and horn. Apparently, the sound guy that had "volunteered" for this event had his monitor amp go out so he ran the monitors directly off the main mix amps. For many of you, that's enough said. For those that haven't experienced this, the woofers in the monitors were flapping the entire show from the kick drum (and me). I couldn't hear my bass from the monitors AT ALL, and not much of anything else. I cranked up my amp on my 2x10 to try to hear, and I pretty much trashed the woofers in my 2x10 that day. From what I'm told, we sounded pretty good to the audience, but I couldn't even enjoy playing much less worship because I was so mad the entire hour we played. That was the first time I had ever played that I REALLY couldn't hear myself so I was very unsure about my playing. After that, I decided I would always be prepared!

I acquired quite a bit of equipment now, and I try to have more than needed because like others have said, you can always turn down; but as I've experienced, you can't always get enough. I almost always tell the sound guy not to put my bass in the monitors. I can take care of me and the drummer hearing bass on stage. I've noticed many sound companies save their money on their monitors so my "solution" works.

Here is my arsenal of amps and cabs: GK MB200, Aguilar TH500, Sansamp RBI, Peavey IPR 3000 DSP, Behringer NU3000DSP, Carvin 2x10 with replacement Eminence BP102 woofers, Markbass 102P, my custom made 2 ft3 box tuned to 37 Hz with a Faital Pro 12PR300A woofer, Trace Elliott 15, Seismic Audio 2x15, Ampeg SVT18, and my custom made 8 ft3 box tuned to 30 Hz with a Selenium 18SWS800 woofer. And I'm always wanting more!!! Oh, I forgot to mention I play a 5-string, and I LIKE to hear/feel that low B 30 Hz fundamental, not just the 2nd harmonic and overtones. Also, when you played with a lead guitar player/lead singer that is deaf in one ear...let's just say I have to use earplug in practice or indoor performances, and I never need my own monitor because I can hear everything just fine from his 10-15' away!

I've attached pics of my custom cabs.

 

[JimmyM]

Did Geddy return to cabinets on the most recent Rush tour, the one on during which he showcased his newly beefed-up bass collection? (Imagine being able to buy all those Fenders and Rics, play each on one song per night for the duration of tour, then deduct the lot as depreciating assets on your tax schedule? So much win!)

No, he just had them for looks. But it's a darn clever way to get tax deductions, absolutely!

 

[borgward]

I use a 210 watt Peavey Bass 400 that I usually use with a 4 X 10 cab. Sometimes with a Peavey 1810 - 1 X 18 w/ 2 X 10
for outdoors. It has a thing called a volume control. I can turn it down if need be. Gives me plenty of headroom if I need it.

I think the problem a lot of people have w/sound reinforcement is the guy running it. If you got the right guy, fine. There have been times that people in the audience have told me they cant't hear the Bass. I recently sat in the audience near the sound guy and could barely hear the Bass until somebody associated with that band got on the sound guy to make it right

 

[bbh]

Some bands use a PA and not a sound system. It also depends on what the other amps are.
I have 1 band where I use 2 10's because they use 18 watt amps. They don't mike the whole band, just the guitars, kick, vox. However, because of the way they run this, I do use 4 10's @ 2000 watts outdoors. (this full setup sounds like a concert at the beach and is only for large places).
I've play another band w/ 1 12 @ 1000 watts against a 4 12's marshall player.
I have 2 gigs coming where i'll just use 1 10@ 500 watts.

On the rare occasion where I get side fills, I could easily go w/out an amp at all.

 

[genesound]

Ankle blaster!

To put it bluntly, some PA's suck and so do some sound men. ...

Couldn't agree more, having been a soundman for over 4 decades.

I got a secret trick I wanna share for when the soundguy comes and wanna plug you direct into the DI. When hes not looking, just take the xlr from the di and plug it into your amp, Ive done this a countless amount of times and always gets compliments on my tone(gallien krueger). Remember your the bassplayer and the others need too know whos boss

Some older amps had decent DI outs, but some were horrible, with noise or unwanted distortion. As a soundman/musician, I liked (usually preferred) taking the bass amp DI out(s) if they worked well.

Myself, I use a Helix Rack with H9s, HOG2, etc, and the outputs are clean as a whistle. I'd never let someone take a direct off my axe when I'm using gear like that. The fx are part of the material, and the direct off the axe has nothing to do with the sound I'd want amplified by the PA and monitor system.

I like tidy too. I've tried just going direct, and it didn't work for me. Perhaps because I'm opposed to using in-ears and monitors just don't cut it.

I rue the current trend towards bands using processed tones to just go direct to the PA. Unless they're pop, they sound utterly sterile. Awful. I have seen only one band go this route and sound good, surprisingly a heavier band although their overall sound is always ultra-processed even on record. I know their sound guy, and he's a stellar musician with massive engineering skills and that venue's PA is excellent, so maybe that was mostly why they sounded decent. It makes total sense that a band will prefer to travel with virtually nothing to carry, lose, break, set up, etc, but it'll be their last profitable tour if they sound bad or lifeless.

Some wheels don't need reinvention and most importantly what works for some may not work for others. Of course, yet that seems to fly way over the heads of so many.

Speaking of, and this is not intended towards the poster I've quoted above, it really makes me laugh at the extreme vanity and ignorance or inexperience of those who speak with an air of authority in absolute terms claiming that just because they (think) they sound good with what we'll heretofore call an ankle or knee-blaster, that the same gear they use would work for others in radically different bands and venues with radically different sounds at radically different volumes and if it doesn't then they're just poseurs. Or that 99.99999% of bassists have ever heard of, or could afford, or care even a little more than less about boutique/custom cabs that are primarily known for extra low-end extension which is about the last thing you need at higher volumes and in a dense mix.

Unless you're working as the roadie for someone working with too much amp or cab, just live and let hernia.

Every bassist has their own style, sound, gear, and preferences. Working with different genres makes big differences, as does whether it's primarily a cover band or an original band. That should all be expected both here and by sound people at gigs. What really needs to happen though, and what usually worked best for me if there was time (not always possible at "festivals") was to go talk to the band members and get an idea what they want both specifically, but also conceptually for their sound. For bass, I often would go hear the bass rig up close and personal to hear what the bassists sound was there and discuss with the player if this was the ideal sound or if they'd like it a bit different. Then I could dial in "the sound" into the PA and/or monitors appropriately to reinforce their "sound". Of course depending on time and circumstances I'd do this with all the players and singers as well... it's a process.

 

[Max Headroom]

... The bass kit can already compete with the drum kit - if we ever get to miking up the drums, then we'll have the option to DI the rest. So I don't see a need for big rigs - put the money into quality kit and a quality pa / mixer.

My Rumble 500 combo is plenty loud to hang with a drummer. I got the 2x10 extension cab and don’t really ever need it.
Sometimes we just have the kick drum, vocals, and horns going into the PA. But if the whole drum kit is mic’d, the bass, keyboards, and guitar will also be going into the PA.

 

[Korladis]

Because my giant 2x15 can do everything a tiny 1x10 can, but the reverse isn't true.

I use the same rig for the folk/rock band I play in that I do for the doom metal bands. I don't use the same settings, though. I go for a rounder tone and I have the volume dialed back a lot. I still like using the big 2x15 though, because I like having a speaker closer to my ear level than a smaller cab would be.

Plus it's just a really good sounding cab.

 

[bholder]

Why?

Because I can.

 

[Korladis]

Why?

Because I can.

View attachment 2780358

Hell yeah.

Ultimately, it comes down to "we like our rigs."

 

[Paulabass]

My rig is getting smaller. However, a windy outdoor stage needs you big rig no matter how good the p.a.

 

[JimmyM]

My rig is getting smaller. However, a windy outdoor stage needs you big rig no matter how good the p.a.

As much as I love the bigger rigs, you really don't. I've played some windy darn stages on occasion, and you might need to turn up a little, but you can still do it with a small rig and a good PA if you were doing it before with a small rig and a good PA. That said, I prefer a bigger rig any time I can use one...I'm just not as ambitious about moving them as I once was.