Why the hate towards lined fretless?

[ole Jason]

Neither lines nor unlined are in tune- the only thing that gets you in tune is finger placement, and unlined isn't going to help you more there.

Lines aren't necessarily going to get you more there either. I don't "hate" lines on fretless electric bass but I think they are a little silly especially considering most fretless have dots on the side anyway.

I guess I just don't understand their purpose if you already have a dot.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Parallax. The dot will give you the accurate place to intonate directly above it. That intonation point won't be directly above the dots on the higher strings. An easy way to test this is to grab a fretted bass. Fret your highest fret on your lowest string, then look down the neck at your highest string. If you lined up you finger directly with the dot on those higher strings, you'd be ridiculously out of tune. This line moves along with the neck to different spots. This is why some unlined basses still have dots on the top of the fingerboard on the treble side of the neck (think F-Bass).

 

[GG7]

Not hate- just incorrect Invisible on a blackened stage- yes. A darkened stage- no, and how often do we play in complete darkness? Even the really dark bar we've played at near hear has a wondrous collection of spinning lights that both let you see your instrument and give you epileptic seizures. Neither lines nor unlined are in tune- the only thing that gets you in tune is finger placement, and unlined isn't going to help you more there. And I'll flat-out say that those who think they're playing more in-tune than a fretted on their fretless are fooling themselves about their accuracy.

Totally disagree!

I also play Hammond organ, piano and other keyboards, so I am very accustomed to playing a well tempered instrument. I can tell if I am sharp or flat very easily, and my fretless playing is done in the studio 100% of the time these days. Don't use it all the time, but when I do, it is for a recorded piece of music.

Having the lines makes it much easier to get it right by sight.

My cheap little Rondo SX has inlayed lines on the fretboard, and they are correctly placed and the notes are as close as you could want in terms of hitting the pitch you want at the right spot on the neck, with that fretless personality. Its never going to sound like a fretted bass though, but isn't that the whole point of using a fretless in the first place?

 

[Jackie Clark]

Nothing wrong with having an opinion but,as musicians/creative beings,should it really matter what we have on our instruments?

How is it we want to put rules on everything involving the creative process? The rules should be no rules.Keep an open mind and if someone wants dots,lines or whatever,let them have em...if you don't want them,just don't get them.The worse response is to have hate towards your groove family because they don't do what you do!

What sense does that make?

Personally,I love the look of an unlined fretless bass but,I have lines on my fretless because I wanted to speed up the process a bit(haha) Now,that I've been playing fretless a little over 10 years,I don't have to look down,I trust my ears.Plus,when I'm reading,I can't look anyway or I'm lost!! hahaha

 

[spade2you]

Does that change the fact that it was lined?

No, just pointing out that unlined fretless wasn't always an available option.

 

[GG7]

Nothing wrong with having an opinion but,as musicians/creative beings,should it really matter what we have on our instruments?

How is it we want to put rules on everything involving the creative process? The rules should be no rules.Keep an open mind and if someone wants dots,lines or whatever,let them have em...if you don't want them,just don't get them.The worse response is to have hate towards your groove family because they don't do what you do!

What sense does that make?

Personally,I love the look of an unlined fretless bass but,I have lines on my fretless because I wanted to speed up the process a bit(haha) Now,that I've been playing fretless a little over 10 years,I don't have to look down,I trust my ears.Plus,when I'm reading,I can't look anyway or I'm lost!! hahaha

Couldn't agree with you more!

As I posted earlier...

It doesn't matter HOW you play it, just as long as you GET IT PLAYED!

I've often found that those who create these barriers that they expect everyone to follow, have some insecurity issues going on with their own choices.

The whole, "Misery loves company" thing comes to mind.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Totally disagree!

I also play Hammond organ, piano and other keyboards, so I am very accustomed to playing a well tempered instrument. I can tell if I am sharp or flat very easily, and my fretless playing is done in the studio 100% of the time these days. Don't use it all the time, but when I do, it is for a recorded piece of music.

Having the lines makes it much easier to get it right by sight.

My cheap little Rondo SX has inlayed lines on the fretboard, and they are correctly placed and the notes are as close as you could want in terms of hitting the pitch you want at the right spot on the neck, with that fretless personality. Its never going to sound like a fretted bass though, but isn't that the whole point of using a fretless in the first place?

I don't see any part that we're not on the same page on. The other poster said using an unlined can get you closer to being in tune that a fretted bass, and I said that's not realistically going to happen which you reiterate in your last paragraph. What part are you disagreeing with?

 

[Jim Carr]

Not hate- just incorrect Invisible on a blackened stage- yes. A darkened stage- no, and how often do we play in complete darkness? Even the really dark bar we've played at near hear has a wondrous collection of spinning lights that both let you see your instrument and give you epileptic seizures.

I'm glad you can see lines on a darkened stage, I can't. So perhaps we are both generalizing our experience?

I have played many times where the light ON ME was not enough to see lines, dots, frets, whatever. All IME, YMMV.

Neither lines nor unlined are in tune- the only thing that gets you in tune is finger placement, and unlined isn't going to help you more there.

Which is what I tried to say, thanks for the clearer expression.

And I'll flat-out say that those who think they're playing more in-tune than a fretted on their fretless are fooling themselves about their accuracy.

I can't argue this, but will point out that orchestral strings have no frets in order to create better intonation, not to make it harder to play—but I hate being an organologist, so I'll just say "you win."

 

[GG7]

I don't see any part that we're not on the same page on. The other poster said using an unlined can get you closer to being in tune that a fretted bass, and I said that's not realistically going to happen which you reiterate in your last paragraph. What part are you disagreeing with?

Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say?

This part primarily....

And I'll flat-out say that those who think they're playing more in-tune than a fretted on their fretless are fooling themselves about their accuracy.

I thought you were saying that those playing a fretless with lines were not as accurate with pitch as a fretted bass in terms of pitch, which I don't agree with.

I can hit the notes pretty much right on the money with mine, but it still doesn't sound like a fretted bass on tape, and I wouldn't want it to. But in terms of pitch, I don't have a problem being in the same range as a fretted bass.

Thing is... When I use one of these, I rarely just land on the notes. I slide into them because that is the effect I am going for, and why I am using a fretless instead of a fretted bass.

Otherwise, why would I bother with the extra attention required in hitting the notes on pitch? I'd just use one of my fretted Jazz basses or my 4003 for the part! lol!

If I misunderstood your point, please accept my apologies!

Cheers.

 

[Jackie Clark]

Couldn't agree with you more!

As I posted earlier...

It doesn't matter HOW you play it, just as long as you GET IT PLAYED!

I've often found that those who create these barriers that they expect everyone to follow, have some insecurity issues going on with their own choices.

The whole, "Misery loves company" thing comes to mind.

Yeah man,the worst thing in the world to me is being around musicians who can't go with the flow...I totally value the study of one's craft but to let book knowledge get in the way of natural creativity is a horrible thing!

I tell young players all the time...get as much music education as you can but,don't let what you learn change who you are as a player/writer/producer.Use the tools to become a better overall musician and not someone close-minded to all the possibilities with such a powerful force as music!

 

[GG7]

Hell yes!

If everyone followed the rules, we wouldn't have most of the great songs out there we all love!

The Beatles, YES, Genesis etc. etc. etc. surely didn't play by the rules when they wrote and recorded their great music!

Breaking the rules is half the fun of music creation in my opinion. I have a pretty decent musical education, but I much prefer the seat of your pants approach to writing and playing.

MUCH MORE FUN!

 

[Tom Howland]

I think that lines make it harder to learn to play fretless, and I personally find it easier to play unlined. Ymmv.

That's it in a nut shell.
And most new fretless players don't get it.
And some lines are not pitch correct.
Play with your ears.

 

[Jim Carr]

Most people put line markers (stickers) on the fingerboard when learning those classical instruments though....

Some do, some don't. Most don't in our program of 80+ string students where I teach. My nine and 10-year old double bass students don't use tape or markers. However, they are allowed to draw a tiny line with a pencil. This wears off in about 20 seconds of playing. Instead, we do lot's of "target practice," listening, singing, and scale practice, using correct hand position and fingering, and did I mention they make mistakes and HEAR them? No stickers or colored tape.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say?

I thought you were saying that those playing a fretless with lines were not as accurate with pitch as a fretted bass in terms of pitch, which I don't agree with.

Nah, wasn't saying that at all- I only used lined fretlesses now (my first was unlined).

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

That's it in a nut shell.
And most new fretless players don't get it.
And some lines are not pitch correct.
Play with your ears.

That's just silliness. You play with your fingers. The only way to play in tune is to put your fingers in the right place. If you only use your ears to guide your fingers, then the only way you know if you're off is if you've already played the note out of tune. Use everything to get your hand in the right place- ears, eyes, finger- I'd use scratch and sniff lines if they had them It's no more difficult to learn on a lined bass. If you rely on your eyes too much and don't develop your ears, it's the fault of the player, not the bass. And there's simply no reason why you can't develop both equally well.

No line is less pitch correct than a side dot. And neither of those are more fallible than your hearing.

 

[Jim Carr]

That's just silliness. You play with your fingers. The only way to play in tune is to put your fingers in the right place. If you only use your ears to guide your fingers, then the only way you know if you're off is if you've already played the note out of tune. Use everything to get your hand in the right place- ears, eyes, finger- I'd use scratch and sniff lines if they had them It's no more difficult to learn on a lined bass. If you rely on your eyes too much and don't develop your ears, it's the fault of the player, not the bass. And there's simply no reason why you can't develop both equally well.

No line is less pitch correct than a side dot. And neither of those are more fallible than your hearing.

+1

I agree, mostly. It may be surprising, but for me, the LOWEST TWO frets and thus also fret lines are the most out of tune. In many keys I find them to be sharp.

In all honesty, I don't play many high position chords (other than a few tritones or tenths), so for me that isn't an issue.

Anything that makes me in tune is welcome, I just can't see the lines well enough for them to help.

 

[ArtechnikA]

When I started cello some -cough- 50 years ago, I needed the pencil lines to get me started. I was OK after learning the basic positions.

When I went shopping for a fretless, with exactly 6 months of bass guitar under my belt, I was seriously looking for a lined. When the combination of everything else aligned, the bass in question was unlined. I figured if it was an issue, I could raid my stash of 1/8" masking tape. Turns out I didn't need to, and my ancient cello training must have had an effect, because I don't miss the lines.

I do use the dots as a rough positioning reference, but that's it.

So I don't care about the lines. I wanted them, but I learned to live without them. At this point I'd consider them decoration.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Anything that makes me in tune is welcome, I just can't see the lines well enough for them to help.

Do you play with your bass fairly low? I ask because I'm (literally) legally blind and can still see them, but I also play with my bass pretty high up. If it was hung lower, I probably couldn't.

 

[GG7]

Turns out I didn't need to, and my ancient cello training must have had an effect, because I don't miss the lines.

I do use the dots as a rough positioning reference, but that's it.

So I don't care about the lines. I wanted them, but I learned to live without them. At this point I'd consider them decoration.

Ahhh! But you are the exception to the usual rule with most bass players. Thats awesome that you had so much previous experience with Cello.

Upright players tend to take to fretless electric real easy too. Its like anything else in life... If you do something long enough, your brain eventually starts to unconsciously remember where to put your fingers, and the need for visual queues is greatly reduced.

I personally have never played a violin, viola, cello or upright bass, so I don't have that added skill or memory of that skill.

I also don't play fretless all the time, so when I do, I appreciate the visual aids! 35 years of fretted bass does help with typical finger positions, but as someone who is very picky about pitch and intonation, I still concentrate really hard to make sure I am playing the part in key against the recording I am tracking on.

 

[GG7]

Do you play with your bass fairly low? I ask because I'm (literally) legally blind and can still see them, but I also play with my bass pretty high up. If it was hung lower, I probably couldn't.

I was wondering the same thing.

Sitting down could help, cause when I play in the studio I tend to tilt the bass slightly up at me, so the fingerboard isn't edge on like it is when standing with a strap.

I've always done that when sitting down, although I can play with the neck edge on too, but NOT with the fretless! I need the lines!