Why Volume/Volume?

[KJung]

Im gonna be a real pain in the ass and say I prefer my 4-way switch to either vol/vol or vol/blend. I have 4 positions, neck solo, both in series, both in parallel, and bridge solo. Combined with the right pre-amp, I am able to shape my tone to just about anything I want, and no volume issues (other than series is louder than the others by a bit).

Similar to the MM circuit... series, parallel, and single coil (which is similar to your bridge only I believe). That's pretty cool also, since I assume the series setting would give you a similar mid punch as blending toward the bridge pickup. I don't think I've ever used 100% bridge pickup though... always sounds better to me with just a little neck pickup in for fatness.... that sounds different to me than adding bass boost to fatten the bridge pickup... more open and 'non EQ'd'.

Interesting though!

 

[Juneau]

Similar to the MM circuit... series, parallel, and single coil (which is similar to your bridge only I believe). That's pretty cool also, since I assume the series setting would give you a similar mid punch as blending toward the bridge pickup. I don't think I've ever used 100% bridge pickup though... always sounds better to me with just a little neck pickup in for fatness.... that sounds different to me than adding bass boost to fatten the bridge pickup... more open and 'non EQ'd'.

Interesting though!

Ya if I want the bridge pickup, with a little fatness that the neck pickup provides, I usually use the parallell config, and just play over the bridge pickup more. Seems to accomplish what Im after usually. I dont typically solo the bridge pickup, it sounds a little thin to me too.

 

[Audere]

I'm amazed that this thread got to the bottom of page 2 without anyone mentioning the Audere Audio preamp since you can have it configured with master volume plus individual vol/vol for the pickups.

I have also always preferred vol/vol on passive basses. Glad to see I wasn't hearing things......

Per Mike's comment above, that can result in the same issues as the volume/blend. See his first detailed post toward the beginning of this thread.

The Audere master vol control is a separate control which has zero effect on the tone.

The Audere preamp has buffered vol and vol controls or balance control depending on the customer's preference. Different players use their pickups and controls differently depending on their personal style - which is why it is nice to allow players to choose.

 

[Zooberwerx]

I pour yogurt, fruit, wheat germ, and milk in my control cavity, crank the blend knob fully clockwise and make myself a nice Smoothie.

All my gear at the moment uses the vol / blend configuration with the exception of my Skjold. It's been upgraded with a East / UK preamp which has a 4 position selector: neck pup - both pups parallel - both pups serial - bridge pickup. No blend control!

Riis

 

[ArwinH]

I do use the blend control on the Sadowsky that way. It works OK... no better or no worse than any other volume/blend I've had. There's a very, very small amount of 'blend' capability with it that is within the first 5% of 'off center'. It works OK.... and I many times just move the blend very slightly off center favoring the bridge pickup to add some fingerstyle definition. It just doesn't have the precision and variability as the volume/volume circuit in my Celinder.

It's definitely not a deal breaker or anything, and it is nice to have that single volume control to turn off between sets, etc. But the blending capability of the volume volume sure is nice, and again, very superior to the volume/blend IMO.

Edit: Also, even though I'm an ash/maple guy through and through, I ended up getting a rosewood/Alder Sadowsky, given the very bright and somewhat scooped sound of the Sadowsky J type basses with the standard hum cancelling pickups. That wood combination still has plenty of sizzle and pop, but it does seem to bring out more mid punch than the very bright maple/ash versions. The VTC really is usefull also for warming it up and taking off the sizzle when needed. Kind of off topic... but you brought up the Sadowsky, so thought I would throw it in!

Hijack here, but...

Have you considered just rewiring the electronics on your sadowky to vol/vol? If you do prefer it, and it is feasible, I couldn't see it being very expensive or too much of a hassle for any experienced repair person.

Personally, I'm giving alot of thought to the sadowsky route right now. I did get to play an NYC that was alder/rosewood at a namm show a while ago. This was with the ea combo they had setup at the booth and it WAS very bright even in that combo. But then, My ears weren't very attuned to the jazz bass sound then, and I wasn't very much into that sound back then.

I really prefer the sound of ash, it's very open and quick, and I appreciate that. I could imagine that rolling back to the bridge pickup could fill in those mids, and also it seems single coils would be a really wise choice for getting those throaty and thick mids. Do you think that scooped character comes solely from the humcancelling pickups?

 

[Keith Guitars]

This is an interesting question...

I've never been comfortable with the vol/vol setup, since
I like to be able to turn up or down quickly without changing
the tone...

I agree that there is probably some sonic difference at play,
although whether one setup is necessarily "better" is debatable.

One solution I've used in the past (specifically for those who
wanted minimal impact on the 'dry' tone) is an "assignable"
volume control...

Basically, it's this:
-a master volume
-a secondary volume
-a toggle switch (or push/pull on the secondary volume)

The switch chooses which pickup is affected by the secondary
control. This theoretically gives you all the options of a vol/vol,
plus the master volume option, on two pots, without a stacked
knob. With everything full-up, there should be nothing
passing through any resistive element.

With a 4PDT switch, you can even configure it so the
unaffected pickup is totally independent of the secondary
control, so it only 'sees' one pot.

With the right toggle switch, you can even set it up to take
the 'secondary' control totally out of the loop, though that is
limited to the 'both-full-up' blend position.

It's an interesting and usable configuration...and a bit different!

Peace,
Martin Keith

 

[ArwinH]

This is an interesting question...

I've never been comfortable with the vol/vol setup, since
I like to be able to turn up or down quickly without changing
the tone...

I agree that there is probably some sonic difference at play,
although whether one setup is necessarily "better" is debatable.

One solution I've used in the past (specifically for those who
wanted minimal impact on the 'dry' tone) is an "assignable"
volume control...

Basically, it's this:
-a master volume
-a secondary volume
-a toggle switch (or push/pull on the secondary volume)

The switch chooses which pickup is affected by the secondary
control. This theoretically gives you all the options of a vol/vol,
plus the master volume option, on two pots, without a stacked
knob. With everything full-up, there should be nothing
passing through any resistive element.

With a 4PDT switch, you can even configure it so the
unaffected pickup is totally independent of the secondary
control, so it only 'sees' one pot.

With the right toggle switch, you can even set it up to take
the 'secondary' control totally out of the loop, though that is
limited to the 'both-full-up' blend position.

It's an interesting and usable configuration...and a bit different!

Peace,
Martin Keith

Hi Martin,
I think that's a really cool idea. Somebody was saying in another thread that they usually use a configuration of master volume and then neck pickup volume on jazz basses, as they can have master volume and still be able to pull the neck volume back a little for that more articulate and open sound. Your system is definitely similar but much more versatile and refined.

P.S. I met you at the Veillete Namm booth a couple years ago and wanted to say you are a stand up guy.

 

[thepontif]

It all still boils down to what works the best for you. If you like the way the PU's react with one another in an old J-bass, you won't get it if you buffer the PU's before they blend. If your concern is precision, an active buffer/differential receiver on each PU before the blend is the way to go. The blend SHOULD have an audio taper originating from the center but I've not seen one. Some people like the "warmth" they get due to losses in the cable while playing a passive instrument. Whatever gets you your sound.
The thing that strict engineer-types seem to sometimes forget here is that we're not dealing in absolutes. We're not REproducing anything that was heard in any way other than the way it's heard coming out of a speaker. PU's are not microphones. They don't react to the same sound waves our ears hear. They respond DIRECTLY to the MOVEMENT of the STRING and they do it in very close proximity to the string. Sound waves in air, which is what we hear with our ears, do not get picked up by a bass PU. It's not like a reproducing a live recording where ideally the air in the room where the listening speakers are is doing exactly what the air in the venue where the recording was made was doing. Even in that case the best you can really ask for is to have a speaker that does exactly what the microphone did.

All of these processes put into an electric bass are in the interest of CREATING a great sound and it's all YOUR domain! Not mine or Audere's or Bartolini's or whomever's. I checked out the Audere website and looked at the specs and graphs. It's a really well engineered piece of equipment. It will do a lot of things other preamps won't. But it also won't necessarily do what other preamps WILL. Focus on what you WANT from your instrument and buy a preamp that suits you. One thing I can offer you that the majority of other preamp builders can is real-world "performance tuning" of the preamp and/or bass. I have a sense for it from being active as a player (BTW I'll be out with Sanborn for a few weeks in July/August mostly in CA) and I can turn your subjective desire into a capacitor value that means the difference between really great and perfect for YOU. It's still YOUR baby, no matter what any builder tries to tell you need. I say that as a player more than anything else.

 

[B String]

It all still boils down to what works the best for you. If you like the way the PU's react with one another in an old J-bass, you won't get it if you buffer the PU's before they blend. If your concern is precision, an active buffer/differential receiver on each PU before the blend is the way to go. The blend SHOULD have an audio taper originating from the center but I've not seen one. Some people like the "warmth" they get due to losses in the cable while playing a passive instrument. Whatever gets you your sound.
The thing that strict engineer-types seem to sometimes forget here is that we're not dealing in absolutes. We're not REproducing anything that was heard in any way other than the way it's heard coming out of a speaker. PU's are not microphones. They don't react to the same sound waves our ears hear. They respond DIRECTLY to the MOVEMENT of the STRING and they do it in very close proximity to the string. Sound waves in air, which is what we hear with our ears, do not get picked up by a bass PU. It's not like a reproducing a live recording where ideally the air in the room where the listening speakers are is doing exactly what the air in the venue where the recording was made was doing. Even in that case the best you can really ask for is to have a speaker that does exactly what the microphone did.

All of these processes put into an electric bass are in the interest of CREATING a great sound and it's all YOUR domain! Not mine or Audere's or Bartolini's or whomever's. I checked out the Audere website and looked at the specs and graphs. It's a really well engineered piece of equipment. It will do a lot of things other preamps won't. But it also won't necessarily do what other preamps WILL. Focus on what you WANT from your instrument and buy a preamp that suits you. One thing I can offer you that the majority of other preamp builders can is real-world "performance tuning" of the preamp and/or bass. I have a sense for it from being active as a player (BTW I'll be out with Sanborn for a few weeks in July/August mostly in CA) and I can turn your subjective desire into a capacitor value that means the difference between really great and perfect for YOU. It's still YOUR baby, no matter what any builder tries to tell you need. I say that as a player more than anything else.

thanks

 

[DavePlaysBass]

Most blends are two 500K pots in parallel. When using with a 250K volume pot, you get the same thing wide open as you do with volume volume. Volume volume is two 250K pots in parallel.

However, when you start blending, the 500K pots create a different resistor network than the volume volume 250K pots. I suspect this is were the difference comes in.

Dave

 

[KJung]

Hijack here, but...

Have you considered just rewiring the electronics on your sadowky to vol/vol? If you do prefer it, and it is feasible, I couldn't see it being very expensive or too much of a hassle for any experienced repair person.

Personally, I'm giving alot of thought to the sadowsky route right now. I did get to play an NYC that was alder/rosewood at a namm show a while ago. This was with the ea combo they had setup at the booth and it WAS very bright even in that combo. But then, My ears weren't very attuned to the jazz bass sound then, and I wasn't very much into that sound back then.

I really prefer the sound of ash, it's very open and quick, and I appreciate that. I could imagine that rolling back to the bridge pickup could fill in those mids, and also it seems single coils would be a really wise choice for getting those throaty and thick mids. Do you think that scooped character comes solely from the humcancelling pickups?

Hello! Again, the Sadowsky circuit works fine, and I'm not a big fan of messing around with a bass put together by a pro! I do prefer the volume/volume for the reasons I've stated, but I in no way find the volume/blend unusable. I again gig with my Sadowsky more at least as much as my Celinder.

So, again, my feelings about this are not strong enough to say 'I won't buy a bass with volume/blend'... it's just more of a preference thing. The volume/blend on the Sadowsky (and similar circuits on the current Fodera, MTD, etc., etc.) work fine... and I have no problem getting that 60% bridge 40% neck pickup thing that adds a little more mid punch to J Bass IMO. As I said, the blend circuit doesn't seem capable of doing the 'infinite blend' of the volume/volume, but as long as I can get a sound with a little more 'bridge burp', I'm happy as a clam!

Edit: Per your pickup question... I have never heard the single coils, but virtually every TBer who has and has posted about them seems to prefer them to the standard Sadowsky pickups, and they are typically described as having more 'mid character and growl'. While I like the sound of my Sadowsky very much, I am considering trying a set of single coils to bring up the mid punch a little bit, which to me is the only 'negative' that I hear in the Sadowsky Vintage and Standard model sound.

 

[bajistapromedio]

If you want to have choices of ONE/BOTH FULL/TWO a switch is better than either pan or vol/vol/tone. However, that doesn't allow you to blend the pickups.

Thanks for the explainaition.

 

[thepontif]

By the way, if you really want to get esoteric and get truly the best performance from your internal preamp you have to get rid of the batteries. As long as battery life is an issue, you won't get the best performance available. Batteries are "squishy" and, contrary to popular belief, "noisy" (by EE standards) power supplies. Particularly 9V's which are literally 6 little batteries in one package. All the resistance and noise from one cell is multiplied by 6. So if you try to get current from them in a hurry, the resistance turns it into a voltage drop. External power supplies are far superior from a strictly engineering standpoint. They just aren't practical. Most of us don't want a special cable or anything. If we forget a cable, we want to be able to grab something standard and plug in and play. For a small amount of extra effort, we can get huge returns in performance. Just a thought.

 

[tombowlus]

Thanks again for the great info and clarification on this. It sounds like your preference is similar to mine.

Ken

And mine! [I am almost surprised that we agree on this issue, Ken! Or at least I think we agree! ]

I had both my of my Sadowsky's ordered vol/vol, as well as my chambered MTD (Marilyn #3). I just prefer the sound of vol/vol (in passive mode) and I find that the tone I can get by rolling off the bridge pickup slightly [okay, we're still different in this regard, Ken!] is one that I cannot quite achieve with the same precision using a vol/blend.

Also, keep in mind that you can mute with a pedal (TU-2 works great for me), or even control your volume with a pedal. I prefer to NOT control my overall volume with the controls on the bass, as (at least in passive mode) I find that the tone is different with both pickups full on (or nearly so). And this raises the point where many vol/blend setups have the output of each pickup at 50% when set in the middle (versus 100%/100% on a vol/vol setup).

Tom.

 

[tombowlus]

Im gonna be a real pain in the ass and say I prefer my 4-way switch to either vol/vol or vol/blend. I have 4 positions, neck solo, both in series, both in parallel, and bridge solo. Combined with the right pre-amp, I am able to shape my tone to just about anything I want, and no volume issues (other than series is louder than the others by a bit).

I do like that switch, too, but to be honest, I'd prefer vol/vol with a switch for series/parallel. Hey, isn't Fender doing that now!?!?

 

[DavePlaysBass]

The 250K Volume / 500K Blend does not blend the same way as 250K volume volume as seen in the graph below. The "full on" settings are exact, but the 500K blend pot cuts things more than the 250K volume.

Invalid Link Removed


If you use a 500K volume with a 250K blend, the "full on" response is a little different (but not much) and the cutting and blending are nearly equivalent.

Invalid Link Removed

Dave

 

[Philbiker]

And this raises the point where many vol/blend setups have the output of each pickup at 50% when set in the middle (versus 100%/100% on a vol/vol setup).

No competently designed panpot used for pickup blend should have the pickups at 50%/50% in the center! Think of how quiet the output would be on that bass! It theoretically should be a perfect 100%/100% just like having two volume controls all the way up. (see above very cool charts)

I still prefer VOL/VOL tone - it just seems simpler somehow. I find it easier to remember two aproximate volume settings than one pan setting. Seems backwards - my brain must be working wierd because you'd think that a single blend would be easier to remember......

 

[tombowlus]

No competently designed panpot used for pickup blend should have the pickups at 50%/50% in the center!

I have had it explained to me that way before. The figure may be greater than 50%, but the theory was that with some blend knob setups, the "middle" setting on the blend is, indeed, not as loud as two volumes all the way up would be.

Tom.

 

[DavePlaysBass]

I have had it explained to me that way before. The figure may be greater than 50%, but the theory was that with some blend knob setups, the "middle" setting on the blend is, indeed, not as loud as two volumes all the way up would be.

The context of the conversation may be important to understanding that statement. When the Blend Pot is set at 50%, both pickups have a free ride to the output jack. The only thing bogging them down is the loading of the blend and volume pots. If you select the blend and volume pot values carefully, this effect will not be any different than volume / volume. And even if you don't select them all that carefully, I would suspect the impact would be minor.

Dave

 

[Bassic83]

Just go straight to jack and get rid of all the stuff in the middle!

Hey, it's a thought...