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Double Bass Wireless for DB?

T

turf3

Sep 26, 2011
6,855
16,334
#1
A friend of mine may give me a Fender wireless rig- transmitter and receiver. It works well on his electric guitar. My question is whether it would work on a DB with the typical piezo pickup (Full Circle).

1) Will the lower signal level right out of the piezo be enough to transmit successfully?
2) Or, would I have to have a preamp upstream of the transmitter (which would kind of obviate the value of going wireless - if I've got to be wired to a preamp, I might as well just run one more cable to the amp)?
3) And would a wireless rig successfully transmit and receive bass frequencies?

Thanks!
 
#2
turf3 said:
A friend of mine may give me a Fender wireless rig- transmitter and receiver. It works well on his electric guitar. My question is whether it would work on a DB with the typical piezo pickup (Full Circle).

1) Will the lower signal level right out of the piezo be enough to transmit successfully?
2) Or, would I have to have a preamp upstream of the transmitter (which would kind of obviate the value of going wireless - if I've got to be wired to a preamp, I might as well just run one more cable to the amp)?
3) And would a wireless rig successfully transmit and receive bass frequencies?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
If it should transfer bass guitar it should do DB too … except for the input impedance. Check input impedance data for the transmitter. If it is below 1 MegOhms (like several hundred KOhms) you need to buffer a passive piezo for best results. It will work below, but won‘t sound as good as it could be.
A simple impedance buffer like the mint box or Fdeck‘s Quick‘n‘Dirty impedance buffer (about a battery and six electronic parts) should do or a HPFpre if you want low end and a bit of volume control too.

I checked a simple digital 2.4 GHz transmitter/receiver pair for guitar with my bass guitar (active) and Stagg EUB (active) and it works, but in a distance about 5-6 meters away started with dropouts (in a room with several WLAN access points).

Have not checked a 5 GHz model.
 
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#5
I happen to have a Shure wireless system with a PGXD1 transmitter, which is obsolete, but its spec sheet says it has a 1 MegOhm input impedance. Likewise for their newer BLX system.

If the input impedance of the Fender unit is too low, you'll mainly notice a lack of low end. So you could try an A/B comparison with the wireless and without.
 
#7
There is a rather method to measure input impedance, but you need a low voltage AC source (sine, anywhere between 100 and 5000 Hz) and a resistor of 1 MegOhms or more and a voltmeter.

Feed the AC source with the resistor in the hot line (splitting the hot wire by the resistor) into the input you want to measure. The resistors are in series that way, the voltage can pass the capacitor in the input and you can measure the voltage drop at the input against ground.
The ratio of Ac voltage against input voltage would be the same as sum of both resistors against input impedance resistor. Now only solve that equation to get the input impedance.

Input_impedance [MegOhms] =

Input_impedance_voltage [Volt] * External_resistance [MegOhms] / (ACsource_voltage [Volt] - Input_impedance_voltage [Volt])

(I tried to transform to that formula without paper, but finally needed seven lines of equation transformation. Too much to keep it in my brain only, I’m not a total genius, not even a smaller one …)

Impedance is frequency dependent, but since it is mainly defined by a resistor and frequencies from 100 to 5000 Hz should pass unchanged, we handle it like a resistor, which it is in almost all cases and the DC blocking capacitor should let the AC pass unchanged.

You may use an audio interface output fed by a sine generator (app or recording) as the AC source. Should at least be able to deliver 0.7 Volts, probably even one volt.

It helps to choose an external resistor value that is close to the expected internal resistor value to avoid measuring errors getting multiplied several times.

If you can get Input_voltage close to half of the ACsource_voltage, the Internal_resistor value is close to the External_resistor value and the measuring error is minimized.

So it might help to have 500 KOhms, 1, 2.2, 5, 10 MegOhms resistors, but even a single 1 MegOhms resistor would at least give you a good impression about the input impedance using the formula.
 
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#9
IMHO, the first thing should be to answer why.

I don't remember ever using wireless, but I gigged professionally for a long time and I don't remember every gig. There were plenty of bass guitar gigs where wireless would have been useful. I sometimes used a 20' cord so I could roam a bit.

Some of my peers did use top quality wireless belt packs, mics, and IEM packs. They were not 100% reliable/trouble free. They were prone to random noise spikes (RF hits) and drop outs. The IEM packs were the least reliable. If I remember correctly, the instrument and mic systems were dual diversity, but the IEM systems were not. Dual diversity basically means the system broadcast two channels at the same time to increase reliability. Also there are two antenna that a spread out and the system selects which ever antenna provides the strongest signal.

The organization spent considerable money trying to make our wireless systems as reliable as possible. We had active blade antennas for the mics and instruments and helical antennas for the IEM systems. But in certain challenging RF environments the wireless still had problems.

For upright I was almost always stationary a few feet in front of my amp. I don't see any sort of benefit for this type of gig. There were a few gigs were I came out in front of a full concert band in a small chamber group or jazz combo. Wireless could be potentially useful for this type of gig. For the chamber group I was probably on a mic that was placed in a premarked location just before I walked out. A mic will provide a more natural sound, especially for bowed upright. I may have used wireless for the jazz combo. A wireless could be potentially useful for any gig where you don't use an amp.

IMHO to effectively use wireless on upright, I would be very beneficial to have a volume control or at least a mute switch. It would also be useful to have a buffer. You could probably mount a Fdeck HPF to the tail piece, which would take care of both requirements.
 
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#12
I'm currently taking a hiatus from gigging since I've moved to a new city /state, but shortly before moving I picked up a ToneDexter II to replace my Headway EDB 2 H.E., which I used to blend a mic and Realist Lifeline. I plan to program a separate patch on the TD for the wireless transmitter. In theory, the TD should give me identical results. I wish I would have done this when I was regularly doubling because I can also use a separate patch for bass guitar. A wireless adapter and a tone dexter will be a lot easier to manage than 3 channels, a pedal board, and a million cables.

Idk how often I will actually end up using wired vs wireless, but it's nice to have the option.
 
#13
I routinely use wireless dongles with my DB, both for amp and FOH. These are some of the inexpensive dongles from Amazon.

They have never let me down, unless I forget to bring them or forget to charge them.

I have 2 sets so I can have either two connections (mic and piezo) at the same time or have 2x battery time.
 
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#14
Wasnex said:
IMHO, the first thing should be to answer why.
...

For upright I was almost always stationary a few feet in front of my amp. I don't see any sort of benefit for this type of gig. ...
Click to expand...
I play with a lot of very old guys who to be quite honest don't have the best situational awareness...

"Jim."
"Jim, you're caught up."
"JIM!!! WIRE!!! STOP!!!"
[cue crashes, bangs, and a microphone stand with microphone crashing into the front of the double bass leaving a permanent wire grid mark]
Fewer wires is better.

But not, of course, if it won't work or if it'll kinda sorta work but actually just suck.
 
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#15
Don Hergert said:
I routinely use wireless dongles with my DB, both for amp and FOH. These are some of the inexpensive dongles from Amazon.

They have never let me down, unless I forget to bring them or forget to charge them.

I have 2 sets so I can have either two connections (mic and piezo) at the same time or have 2x battery time.
Click to expand...
Do you plug the piezo pickup directly into the transmitter, or use a preamp first?
 
#16
I have a mounted K&K Dual Channel Pro ST that my Vic's Model C feeds directly into first, then the mono output feeds into an extension to the base of the tailpiece, where then a transmitter plugs in.

Or, my Sennheiser e604 feeds clear into another extension also at the base of the tailpiece, where then a transmitter plugs in.

Either way, the transmitter(s) is(are) located there at the base of the tailpiece.

I'm mobility challenged, which was my reason for going so seriously wireless. Yesterday at a festival where I had forgotten my wireless dongles, the sound guy plugged in a cable and I remembered how important wireless can be for a double bass. :D
 
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#17
Don Hergert said:
I have a mounted K&K Dual Channel Pro ST that my Vic's Model C feeds directly into first, then the mono output feeds into an extension to the base of the tailpiece, where then a transmitter plugs in.

Or, my Sennheiser e604 feeds clear into another extension also at the base of the tailpiece, where then a transmitter plugs in.

Either way, the transmitter(s) is(are) located there at the base of the tailpiece.

I'm mobility challenged, which was my reason for going so seriously wireless. Yesterday at a festival where I had forgotten my wireless dongles, the sound guy plugged in a cable and I remembered how important wireless can be for a double bass. :D
Click to expand...
OK, so you have a preamp on the bass, and that feeds the transmitter.

What I'm reading is that it's the input impedance of the first device the piezo is connected to, that matters. So in your case you've got an appropriate pre-amp. (I do too, and I set it next to the amp, and use a cord, which is what I'm wanting to get rid of - not the cord from preamp to amp, that's about a foot long - but the cord from the bass to the pre-amp.)

My concern is about plugging the transmitter directly to the piezo, sending that signal to a pre-amp with receiver on the input to the pre-amp, then to the amp.

Of course, to forestall the twelve dozen people who're getting ready to type "you'll just have to try it and see" - of course I'll try it for myself; but I was hoping to find out either "no worries, mate, I've been doing it that way for years" or "It's gonna suck, no way around it", so I can scale my own efforts of investigation accordingly.
 
#18
What I can say is that the mounted Sennheiser e604 I also use is a low impedance (~350^) dynamic mic, and it works just fine totally clear (no pre, nothing) using wireless.

They are advertised to us non-gear-junkies as essentially functionally equal to using a cable. In my experience that is how they work.
 
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#20
Don, do you have an XLR-transmitter or a T(R)S-transmitter for the mic?
Could you make a picture of the transmitter/receiver pair?
Do I remember correctly that it sends in the 2.4 GHz band (like the original WLAN)?

I got the cheapest 2.4 GHz TS-transmitter/receiver pair that I could find on AliExpress. (Just straight plugs, no hinge. Thought that might have a longer life than the hinged ones.)

Had two WLAN access points on 2.4 GHz in the same room which might explain the limited distance before dropouts happened.
 

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