With individuality not nurtured

[Billy Low]

I wouldn't judge a musician by a couple of videos posted on youtube. I concede that I have viewed many awful videos that are poorly executed covers, but does that mean that those players are clones lacking creativity?.

Not doing that.

Mike Elizondo was mentioned as someone who has made an art of ripping classic lines. I wouldn't judge mike's entirety as a musician based on his sampling. I concede that it is a musician's responsibility to maintain his own musical integrity, but it can also be within a persons integrity to pay the bills, provide for a family etc.

I mentioned Mike. Believe me, he's made more than enough to make ends meet. Not hating on him. He could be the coolest cat in the world, should he receive the accolades that he does for the work put in...I think not. After you've made money off of someones work, at what point does it kick in that you need to acknowledge it. Where is the integrity? Mike is in a position where he could haved the players that he has lifted play on some of the multiplatinum recordings he has done as a sign of gratitude, or at least pay respect to them when he's placed on magazine covers. You mean he couldn't pose with Rodney "Skeet" Curtis on the cover of Basss Player Magazine? Wasn't part of the reason he is on the cover because of "Skeet's" bass lines? That's like me getting accolades for reprinting MacBeth!

I spose all I'm saying is often we know very little about a bassplayer's musicianship before we throw around labels like 'clone'. I'd like to sit in on a jam with mike before I ever considered thinking that the guy wasn't creative.

Never said that these guys are not talented, the point is do they deserve the credit for playing like someone else. They aren't making it on their own merit.

Also, I'd love to see you sit in on a jam with Janek and tell him to his face that he was a Garrison clone. I don't see the integrity in anyone, including Jauqo, making claims about players and not standing by their comments by disclosing who they are referring to.

It's obvious that you don't know me. I am notorious for not giving a hoot about a person's social status. I will tell Godzilla he needs a breath mint and dare him to say something. I am not impressed with the fact that other people kiss his arse, he's a man just like I am. His fame means nothing.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

I don't see the integrity in anyone, including Jauqo, making claims about players and not standing by their comments by disclosing who they are referring to.

There are a wealth of clones out there and any one with a 0% of intelligence can pick them out. I don't have to name names you all know who they are.

The media builds them up and the gullible consumers buy into the hype.

Instead of thinking and listening for themselves they take it as gospel.

The other problem is that most of the listeners don't even know the history of their instrument.

Regurgitation is interesting as it takes money from the pockets of those whom it dupes.

 

[jtrow]

Regurgitation is interesting as it takes money from the pockets of those whom it dupes.

Aren't we all doing this? Maybe not on youtube, but on stage. We can't all be playing new, unheard of basslines on every song we do. Don't all basslines go through a regurgitation period, where they are played, played again years later with a twist, now played again by us with a twist. Isn't this the evolution of bass playing. I don't watch the bass playing videos on youtube, maybe I should, but as long as they're not passing it off as their own, isn't it just that imitation is a form of flattery?

As for Norwood Fisher, great catch. I didn't even think about him.

 

[Belka]

There are a wealth of clones out there and any one with a 0% of intelligence can pick them out. I don't have to name names you all know who they are.

The media builds them up and the gullible consumers buy into the hype.

Instead of thinking and listening for themselves they take it as gospel.

The other problem is that most of the listeners don't even know the history of their instrument.

Regurgitation is interesting as it takes money from the pockets of those whom it dupes.

Ok, I know that there are a lot of clones around, especially on Youtube, etc. But you have specifically stated that "the media builds them up and the gullible consumers buy into the hype". Ok, so are you talking about the wealth of indie rock / punk pop britpop bassists with their precisions / ampegs / picks? If so, I wouldn't say that the media hype the bass players at all; the groups maybe, but certainly not the bass players.

The only bassists who have been hyped by the bass / jazz media recently would seem to be the four finger guys, specifically, Matt Garrison, Janek Gwizdala, Tony Grey, and especially Hadrien Feraud, as well as maybe a few gospel players like Andrew Gouche, Maurice Fitzgerald, etc. Honestly, I can't think of any other bass players who have been 'hyped' by the media specifically for their bass playing.

I will say that anyone while with a certain 0% of intelligence would realise these guys have a similar sound, they (specifically the four finger guys) have very different melodic approaches which I would think that anyone with a certain amount of musical knowledge would be able to distinguish. To me, Hadrien and Janek sound so different in their approach to melody and composition to me that I would never fail to distinguish them.

So honestly, Jauqo, are you talking about these guys? A simple yes or no? If no, could you please at least direct me towards the other media which is hyping clones so I can at least draw my own conclusions?

 

[JAUQO III-X]

The (media) hype is all around you. The key is not to believe the hype




I am not here to give any one all the keys.

 

[OneMoreRobot]

Screw it all and play how you play. That's what I do. I used to be like, "OMG! I must play like Flea!" (That rhymed, BTW)

Now I just play what I feel goes with the song, no matter how simple or complex. I don't worry about being the next Jaco or forging my own style. I just play what the song requires.

 

[fountain boy]

I've been wrong before, but i think that this post triggered Jaquo's post.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=525917

 

[fountain boy]

That intro tune is Donnie Mc Lurkin's 'We Fall Down But We Get Up'

Mr. Gouche puts a run there in that only he could pull off, lol!

 

[Hoover]

Well the first thing you said was you haven't heard much of either but then you dismiss Matt's playing. If your intent was to say "I like Feraud s playing" fine just say that but I don't see the need to diminish someone to build up someone else. That's a musician thing but i have never understood why we do that.

I don't see how saying "Player A exhibited more depth than Player B" is dismissing Player B. It's praising Player A, and it's arranging a heirarchy. They're both freakin' excellent players.

 

[narud]

The (media) hype is all around you. The key is not to believe the hype




I am not here to give any one all the keys.

this is getting comedic

 

[Marlat]

The media builds them up and the gullible consumers buy into the hype.

Maybe the "gullible consumers" only represent a small percentage of the actual consumers who arn't "buying into the hype" but merely enjoying what they hear.

Instead of thinking and listening for themselves they take it as gospel.

Or perhaps they are thinking and listening for themselves and deciding they like what they hear. How would we know?

The other problem is that most of the listeners don't even know the history of their instrument.

Arguably most listeners don't play an instrument, but if you are narrowing the class to those that do, how does knowing the history of an instrument form a necessary requirement of enjoying music?

Regurgitation is interesting as it takes money from the pockets of those whom it dupes.

If it were that easy, those who are being "duped" could simply do it themselves. There is often a reason why those being "duped" arn't earning the same money as those who have found a way to "improve" (and I use that term loosely) on what the person was doing.

 

[jerry]

If we're talking about hype around Gwizdala, Feraud, Grey etc. I'm not seeing it. As far as I can tell Gwizdala puts out his own CDs and markets himself, and I'm not seeing the other guys on any major labels either.
Tough crowd, tough crowd.

 

[David Jayne]

Tal Wilkenfeld?

 

[Jools4001]

Don't underestimate the need that human beings have to conform to societal and cultural norms. It takes bravery, and in some cases, considerable eccentricity to fly against the gravitational pull of that conformity - and you've got to take people with you, outside of their own need to conform if they are to appreciate what you're doing.

Little wonder that so many people stay with pleasing the mass of people who would rather stick with what they know.

 

[Phil Smith]

There are a wealth of clones out there and any one with a 0% of intelligence can pick them out. I don't have to name names you all know who they are.

The media builds them up and the gullible consumers buy into the hype.

Instead of thinking and listening for themselves they take it as gospel.

The other problem is that most of the listeners don't even know the history of their instrument.

Regurgitation is interesting as it takes money from the pockets of those whom it dupes.

Well JAUQO III-X, if you feel that strongly about all of this maybe you need to jump into that scene, you know, the one awash in clones and demonstrate your uniqueness so that they can know the true way.

BTW, I saw Scott Ambush adeptly demonstrate this very thing live at a Bassplayer Live event in NYC, I believe I even have audio.

 

[brake]

Irony!

 

[Belka]

The (media) hype is all around you. The key is not to believe the hype




I am not here to give any one all the keys.

So, reading between the lines, that means you ARE talking about these guys. However, if you feel that I am putting words into your mouth, please feel free to correct me by stating, "I do not think that Hadrien Feraud, Janek Gwizdala, Andrew Gouche, etc., are clones", and the matter will be cleared up, and we can go back to speculating who it is you're talking about.

I'm cool with your opinion if you think that's the case; I don't necessarily agree with it, but each to his own.

 

[Barkless Dog]

I think finding your voice or tone is subjective, not necessarily - never been done before.

Nothing in music is new today, we are beyond that point. Minimalism - to complexity, trash to art. Its all been done. Everyone rehashes what's come before to find your own voice.

It might sound new to someone, but its not new.


With everything being rehashed and ultimately ending up in digital form do you even need any musicians, but just samples to combine? When the average person listens to it do they care how it's made?
I think not.

Yes its more satisfying in a live situation, rather than watching a dude with a lap top & colored lights.

 

[Phil Smith]

I don't think the issue is really one of cloning but more of spotlighting or better yet of voices that are being heard.

 

[Barkless Dog]

I guess there lies the delema, if you want to sound "unique", that implies being "original" in some way.

The problem with original is so many people are out there it becomes harder to have a voice that is "unique" in a sea of a million bass players screaming, listen to me!

I read Gary Moore saying that what gives a guitarist his unique voice is his vibrato. With bass vibrato is not used as much (except fretless)