With individuality not nurtured

[Lo end PUNCH]

Janek, Matt, Hadrian...hmmm so, if anyone heard a tune here that featured one of these players but you werent told which one, could you truely say who it was without actually guessing? I think not. This is nothing new just dig through your old BP magazines when they used to do the polls thing. The Pino thing hit head on whoever mentioned that, I could name many more but why, If so many here seem to not "get it" then I doubt any amount of proof will help. I for one have felt this way LONG before Jauqo brought it into question so for all those who seem to think he's alone in his rationale, think again because I know quite a few bassists who feel the same way. The media creates sensations, this has been true for many years, you dont need rocket science to see that and it builds up musicians the same way depending an what form of media it comes from. Some people are just not connected, it's not your fault if you arent, however it would behoove you to look a little deeper and truely listen.

 

[beggar98]

This is all a bunch of crap. Jauqo likes to come on here and speak in riddles and half-thoughts and has SOME people believing he's some kinda Socrates of the bass. More like a fortune cookie. He's just jealous that he hasn't received the accolades for his completely original, mind blowing, earth shaking innovations that he just knows will get copied at some point down the line. Of course, he won't come out and say that (has Billy do it for him), he has endorsements to protect.

The fact of the matter is it all comes out in the wash. People listen to what they like. Period. Unfortunately, that means that art that appeals to the lowest common denominator will always sell more and receive more attention than less accessible work. Every artist in the world knows this. Every artist makes a decision at some point about which is more important, success or honesty. Having made that decision, don't knock the people that went the other way. There's more integrity in feeding your family than there is in artistic honesty.

So I'm done with this thread. If Jaco...I mean Jauquo, wants to man up and actually make some statements he can stand behind, someone let me know.

 

[Dertygen]

Please stop all:

"Media" hype.
What hype? -and- What kind of media? Radio? Mags? Word of mouth? Internet? ...such broad statements are miscontrued.

Exposure in the "media" of a person I don't like (opined as a clone) and not someone else I like (opined as 'original').

Those who don't know who's a clone is "not listening".
(Oh please, there are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of bassists. If you can't/don't name that 'clone' STFU. I'm not about to go through every bassline in existence. And has been stated before-> The subjective statement of who's original differs person/player to person/player.).

 

[Phil Smith]

Janek, Matt, Gwizdala...hmmm so, if anyone heard a tune here that featured one of these players but you werent told which one, could you truely say who it was without actually guessing? I think not. This is nothing new just dig through your old BP magazines when they used to do the polls thing. The Pino thing hit head on whoever mentioned that, I could name many more but why, If so many here seem to not "get it" then I doubt any amount of proof will help. I for one have felt this way LONG before Jauqo brought it into question so for all those who seem to think he's alone in his rationale, think again because I know quite a few bassists who feel the same way. The media creates sensations, this has been true for many years, you dont need rocket science to see that and it builds up musicians the same way depending an what form of media it comes from. Some people are just not connected, it's not your fault if you arent, however it would behoove you to look a little deeper and truely listen.

Your misconception is that people don't get it or they don't listen to players. The request here is to name names to focus the conversation since the OP obviously knows whom he's talking about but won't say and then dodges the issue when asked directly, kind of weak if you ask me.

Speaking of connected and not in the way you meant, the people that get heard are connected that's why you hear about them. The best marketing effort brings your message on top of everyone elses whether your message is unique or not. The untutored mob doesn't care about where someting came from they care about what they hear and see in front of them and some have the ability to use that to their advantage.

If you're playing at the level the clones are and your name isn't heard as often as theirs, there's a lot more you can be doing so that it is.

 

[Lo end PUNCH]

Please stop all:

"Media" hype.
What hype? -and- What kind of media? Radio? Mags? Word of mouth? Internet? ...such broad statements are miscontrued.

Exposure in the "media" of a person I don't like (opined as a clone) and not someone else I like (opined as 'original').

Those who don't know who's a clone is "not listening".
(Oh please, there are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of bassists. If you can't/don't name that 'clone' STFU. I'm not about to go through every bassline in existence. And has been stated before-> The subjective statement of who's original differs person/player to person/player.).

Wow, you've actually made Jauqo's point even more evident, go figure.

 

[Lo end PUNCH]

Speaking of connected and not in the way you meant, the people that get heard are connected that's why you hear about them. The best marketing effort brings your message on top of everyone elses whether your message is unique or not. The untutored mob doesn't care about where someting came from they care about what they hear and see in front of them and some have the ability to use that to their advantage.

But then again we are talking about BASS PLAYERS and the media, not average laymen "listeners" aren't we?, who didn't understand that? I said depending on what TYPE of media it comes from, sure my 5 year old could give a rats @$$ about who the bassist rips off or sounds like but as a bass player and musician I recognize these things without even having to think hard about it. I dont think the OP's question even involved how good the music sounds, many cover bands can pull that off, thats not the issue here.

 

[Belka]

Janek, Matt, Hadrian...hmmm so, if anyone heard a tune here that featured one of these players but you werent told which one, could you truely say who it was without actually guessing? I think not. This is nothing new just dig through your old BP magazines when they used to do the polls thing. The Pino thing hit head on whoever mentioned that, I could name many more but why, If so many here seem to not "get it" then I doubt any amount of proof will help. I for one have felt this way LONG before Jauqo brought it into question so for all those who seem to think he's alone in his rationale, think again because I know quite a few bassists who feel the same way. The media creates sensations, this has been true for many years, you dont need rocket science to see that and it builds up musicians the same way depending an what form of media it comes from. Some people are just not connected, it's not your fault if you arent, however it would behoove you to look a little deeper and truely listen.

Um, well I think I could actually. How much have you actually listened to them? If you listened to them properly, you would hear that they do have very different feels and ways of approaching soloing, as well as their own signature tricks, which you should pick up on if you have a well-enough developed ear.

Back in the 70s, could straightahead rock bassplayers hear the difference between Wilton Felder and Jerry Jemmott and James Jamerson? Between Louis Johnson and Stanley Clarke and Larry Graham?

Honestly, maybe your ear's just not there yet?

Also, does this mean that Michael Brecker, Mike Stern, Chick Corea and John Mclaughlin (amongst others) are gullible enough to not only 'buy into the hype' but actually have the 'hype' on their records?

 

[Lo end PUNCH]

Um, well I think I could actually. How much have you actually listened to them? If you listened to them properly, you would hear that they do have very different feels and ways of approaching soloing, as well as their own signature tricks, which you should pick up on if you have a well-enough developed ear.

Back in the 70s, could straightahead rock bassplayers hear the difference between Wilton Felder and Jerry Jemmott and James Jamerson? Between Louis Johnson and Stanley Clarke and Larry Graham?

Honestly, maybe your ear's just not there yet?

Also, does this mean that Michael Brecker, Mike Stern, Chick Corea and John Mclaughlin (amongst others) are gullible enough to not only 'buy into the hype' but actually have the 'hype' on their records?

I truley doubt that you can, who knows maybe it is humanly possible but I've heard way too many "..hey I thought that was (blank) on bass!!!(I can recall Byron Miller on some early George Duke funk offerings when even George mimicked Bootsy's voice and Byron his bass style) boy were we trippin' when we found out it actually wasn't Bootsy. Why would straight ahead rock players actually NEED to hear the difference unless their minds and listening pallettes go well beyond the type of music they play, but then who out of the previous bassists you mentioned weren't true innovators but merely clones?, and I'm not talking technique, I'm talking styles. My ear's not questionable and I've listened to many players rather than just hear them. As for your last question, the artists you mentioned are amongst some of the most known by the masses which includes a majority of non-bassists, and established around, why wouldn't they have the "hype" on their records, think about why they sell records in the first place? It sells, but AGAIN, not the true gist of the OP's point is it? Clones being nurtured is what I believe it was and this and your question PERFECTLY illustrates what is meant, NOT that they aren't good players, which never came into question.

 

[wade_b]

At the end of the day, the average music listener would be hard pressed to name the bassist on their favorite tunes.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing - they're not listening to the "Bass show" - they want to hear music.

Let's make music.

Who the hell really listens that intently to most basslines anyway? Sure, you can put it in their face - jive bass players do this all the time, and wind up alienating listeners in the process.

The great ones find a way to serve the song and still do what they do, but I think most of them stumbled on their voice by accident - I don't think theyre actively thinking about "how can I put this bass in your face" or "how can I impress people with my playing".

There's art, and there's music: music can be art, and art can be non-musical; if we try too hard to make art, we get something that's not musical.

But all in all I think there's room for both - no approach is invalid unless it's jive, forced, from the ego and desire to impress or overcome some doubt, or build worth through listener validation.

I think that's why Zappa said: shut up and play yer guitar.

 

[Lo end PUNCH]

Who the hell really listens that intently to most basslines anyway?

Uh....I do

 

[wade_b]

Uh....I do

You're a bassplayer - you don't count.

 

[Dr_Funkdamental]

This is all a bunch of crap. Jauqo likes to come on here and speak in riddles and half-thoughts and has SOME people believing he's some kinda Socrates of the bass. More like a fortune cookie. He's just jealous that he hasn't received the accolades for his completely original, mind blowing, earth shaking innovations that he just knows will get copied at some point down the line. Of course, he won't come out and say that (has Billy do it for him), he has endorsements to protect.

The fact of the matter is it all comes out in the wash. People listen to what they like. Period. Unfortunately, that means that art that appeals to the lowest common denominator will always sell more and receive more attention than less accessible work. Every artist in the world knows this. Every artist makes a decision at some point about which is more important, success or honesty. Having made that decision, don't knock the people that went the other way. There's more integrity in feeding your family than there is in artistic honesty.

So I'm done with this thread. If Jaco...I mean Jauquo, wants to man up and actually make some statements he can stand behind, someone let me know.

You wrote a whole paragraph full of haterade and you talk about manning up? pffffft. Well atleast we know whos NOT the bigger man. You could have easily made your stance on the subject known without the foolishness.

 

[Belka]

I truley doubt that you can, who knows maybe it is humanly possible but I've heard way too many "..hey I thought that was (blank) on bass!!!(I can recall Byron Miller on some early George Duke funk offerings when even George mimicked Bootsy's voice and Byron his bass style) boy were we trippin' when we found out it actually wasn't Bootsy. Why would straight ahead rock players actually NEED to hear the difference unless their minds and listening pallettes go well beyond the type of music they play, but then who out of the previous bassists you mentioned weren't true innovators but merely clones?, and I'm not talking technique, I'm talking styles. My ear's not questionable and I've listened to many players rather than just hear them. As for your last question, the artists you mentioned are amongst some of the most known by the masses which includes a majority of non-bassists, and established around, why wouldn't they have the "hype" on their records, think about why they sell records in the first place? It sells, but AGAIN, not the true gist of the OP's point is it? Clones being nurtured is what I believe it was and this and your question PERFECTLY illustrates what is meant, NOT that they aren't good players, which never came into question.

Well, I still think I can hear the difference between them, but anyway, let's agree to disagree here as I'm not into circular arguments.
Anyway, as to the musicians I've mentioned, one thing that all of them have in common is that (maybe with the exception of Mike Stern, as much as I love his playing), they are (were, RIP Mr. Brecker) always striving for improvement, and something new, never standing still. They could have made far more money playing more popular music if they wanted to, but they didn't. I mean, come on, do you really think what these guys turn out is commercial music written to sell to the masses? That's a laughable sentiment to be honest.

Oh, and "Why would straight ahead rock players actually NEED to hear the difference unless their minds and listening pallettes go well beyond the type of music they play"

Why would you, someone who obviously doesn't appreciate the likes of Gwizdala, Feraud, and Grey, actually NEED to hear the difference unless your mind and listening pallette go beyond the type of music you play?

No offence, but give me some concrete melodic / harmonic evidence as to why these guys are clones other than the fact that they share certain techniques, and please, none of that "if you have to ask"..crap. Just sound musical evidence please.

 

[wade_b]

Why would you, someone who obviously doesn't appreciate the likes of Gwizdala, Feraud, and Grey, actually NEED to hear the difference unless your mind and listening pallette go beyond the type of music you play?

Are these virtuosos the only players making valid music?

What about:
Dave Pomeroy,
John Paul Jones,
Flea,
Charlie Haden,
Jamerson,
Tommy Shannon?

Are they less valid because they don't "strive to improve", or because they have made music for the masses?

There seems to be an awful lot of elitism and focus on solo players with awesome technique in this thread?

 

[3toes]

Are they less valid because they have made music for the masses?

There seems to be an awful lot of elitism and focus on solo players with awesome technique in this thread?

I don't think it was the original intent to have that focus. I don't think having a unique voice and making music for the masses is mutually exclusive.

I don't think anyone here would make the argument that players like Jamerson and J.P. Jones did not have unique voices...

 

[Mudfuzz]

Well, I still think I can hear the difference between them, but anyway, let's agree to disagree here as I'm not into circular arguments.
Anyway, as to the musicians I've mentioned, one thing that all of them have in common is that (maybe with the exception of Mike Stern, as much as I love his playing), they are (were, RIP Mr. Brecker) always striving for improvement, and something new, never standing still. They could have made far more money playing more popular music if they wanted to, but they didn't. I mean, come on, do you really think what these guys turn out is commercial music written to sell to the masses? That's a laughable sentiment to be honest.

Oh, and "Why would straight ahead rock players actually NEED to hear the difference unless their minds and listening pallettes go well beyond the type of music they play"

Why would you, someone who obviously doesn't appreciate the likes of Gwizdala, Feraud, and Grey, actually NEED to hear the difference unless your mind and listening pallette go beyond the type of music you play?

No offence, but give me some concrete melodic / harmonic evidence as to why these guys are clones other than the fact that they share certain techniques, and please, none of that "if you have to ask"..crap. Just sound musical evidence please.

Um, I'm actually not sure which direction your point is in.

Weather or not something is commercial or not makes it in no way more of less valid then anything else and the are many straight ahead rock players that play and listen to other music on their own time.

Some of us work on fretboard acrobatics and some of us get off on making a musical instrument sound like broken machinery and some of us love to play "Oh Baby baby songs", it doesn't matter really if you like what you are doing, same goes for the well known. Chopsmanglers have a fan base that loves what they do and if they had it their way their favorite chopsmonster would be as commercially exposed as Britney Spears.

 

[Mutato]

Wait a second. This guy's name is JAUQO III-X and his band is called "Mystical Entity"?

OK.

 

[user3653753]

you guys are pretty funny in the back and forth about the garrison cloning thing. I though Barak Obama was allowing stem cell research but not allowing human cloning...? the way some people on this forum have me and hadrien strung up right now, we'll go down for years without the chance for parole!

But of course, it's once again the short sighted view of people who care so little about music and only about "technique". Technique, of course, being nothing to do with how fast you play, but to do with if you are able to express your original and unique musial ideas through your chosen instrument. I consider Charlie Haden for instance to have immense amounts of technique, yet you have probably never heard him play anything fast in his vast recorded history on the instrument.

"oh, Janek and Hadrien use four fingers on the right hand to play the bass...." so that means we sound exactly like mateo garrison? I think not at all. I was just in Paris last week hanging with Hadrien and playing at a bunch of clubs there with him. Sooooo much fun, so incredibly musical, and totally grooving. Not a single mention of mateo, not a single performance of one of mateo's songs, and a lot of smiling faces and happy audience members wherever we went. We played music, our music. Very simple, mainly jamming as we were sitting in together with other bands, but just fun.

Then it comes to a forum such as this one where some people seem to miss the point of what is going on the world. The world outside their computer, outside youtube, outside some tiny little facet of someones playing they might have checked out and made all their assessments of that person based on very little information. I'm not here to bitch and moan about it, I really don't care. People who are negative are thankfully generally in the minority, but I would say go check out way more of people's work before you make such incredibly misdirected statements about them.

"Billy Low" for instance, why did you make such a statement? and then "dare someone to dispute it.." that really makes no sense at all. When there are a million other more positive things you could have said about anything musical in the world, why did you choose that? you obviously don't understand that music is an art form passed on from generation to generation. It's communicated through playing with other people, and through listening to records. Records contain performances by all the people you mentioned. Performances influence younger musicians, and YES, what do you know? those younger musicians go on to have careers and make money, and even make a name for themselves. Quite how do you think it should be? everyone should pay no attention to what went on before them? and start from scratch in total isolation on their own, and never reference people they are fans of?

Why did you not reference marcus miller and victor wooten as being byproducts of Larry Graham? or are marcus and victor sacred because of the incredible influence they have had on modern music? no, of course they're not.

I do resent being told who I do and do not give credit to, so you can maybe check that statement at the door next time. I used to hang with Matt all the time, and of course he was a huge influence on me when I first moved to NYC and was checking out all his stuff, and seeing him play live with some of my heros like Herbie, joe, and McLaughlin. But really, could you not put on one of my albums and then one of his and hear just a few differences in style, writing, tone, time? maybe not. again, it really doesn't bother me, I'm just trying to raise a pretty obvious point that seems to have been totally missed by some people on this thread.

I remain, as always, available for comment and discussion on my section of this forum.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=155

Easy,

Janek

 

[Barkless Dog]

I find it ironic how many unique players are ones who never had formal electric bass or little training or they played with "improper" technique. Larry Graham & Mike Watt come to mind.

I challenge that people taking lessons & theory produces the most clones. Students learn from their teachers & school programs the same technique & thought process that everyone follows or the flavor of the day techniques.

I also find it Ironic that recognized innovative bass players are usually from mass market bands, they are not the MySpace speed demon tapping jazz monsters playing in 7/8.

 

[Brad Johnson]

This is all a bunch of crap. Jauqo likes to come on here and speak in riddles and half-thoughts and has SOME people believing he's some kinda Socrates of the bass. More like a fortune cookie. He's just jealous that he hasn't received the accolades for his completely original, mind blowing, earth shaking innovations that he just knows will get copied at some point down the line. Of course, he won't come out and say that (has Billy do it for him), he has endorsements to protect.

The fact of the matter is it all comes out in the wash. People listen to what they like. Period. Unfortunately, that means that art that appeals to the lowest common denominator will always sell more and receive more attention than less accessible work. Every artist in the world knows this. Every artist makes a decision at some point about which is more important, success or honesty. Having made that decision, don't knock the people that went the other way. There's more integrity in feeding your family than there is in artistic honesty.

So I'm done with this thread. If Jaco...I mean Jauquo, wants to man up and actually make some statements he can stand behind, someone let me know.

I've often wondered why people who seem to dislike Jauqo so much always seem to end up in his threads? In this case shouldn't you have been done with this thread before you clicked on it?



If he does decide to "man up" I'm sure someone will give you a call.