With individuality not nurtured

[thepontif]

I'm a nobody, not seeking to elevate my status in any way...

That said: cats like Santana, Mike Gordon, and to an extent Jauquo have all spoken of a spiritual connection to music that they feel is important.

These same guys also get flack from observers: words like pretentious, Socrates, preaching......

I understand this: religion can be offensive.

But - what if they really do feel this way, and are struggling to communicate something that is difficult to put into words?

What if some others actually can be inspired by these words?

Am I speaking in riddles now? Not really - again I'm really nobody, and I'm certainly no Socrates.

But I for one do relate somewhat to the spiritual side of things; it's a safe bet others do too.

The spiritual component to it is real, in my opinion. For the record, I mean "real"...as opposed to magical.

But putting music into words...? Music isn't words. There's a saying, "talking about music is a lot like dancing about architecture".

Another is, "Speech is conveniently located somewhere between thought and action, and often substitutes for both."

Point is, if you have a musical thought to express, you won't do it with anything other than music. If you need words to "clarify" your thought, you're not where you need to be musically.

 

[StanFan]

Wow, reading this thread tired me out.

Jauqo, I noticed you choose not to list any musicians as influences in your profile. Is it because you fear accusations of "cloning" your heroes? I'm not attacking you or anything. I'd just really like to know why.

 

[wade_b]

The spiritual component to it is real, in my opinion. For the record, I mean "real"...as opposed to magical.

But putting music into words...? Music isn't words. There's a saying, "talking about music is a lot like dancing about architecture".

Another is, "Speech is conveniently located somewhere between thought and action, and often substitutes for both."

Point is, if you have a musical thought to express, you won't do it with anything other than music. If you need words to "clarify" your thought, you're not where you need to be musically.

I think you really hit on something there:
Why do Mike Gordon, Santana, and others speak about music and their approach to it?

I think it comes down to the implicit understanding that people care about what they have to say, because of their stature.

 

[thepontif]

I think that's true. I know Mike Gordon. He came to my house once for a lesson on theory and harmony.

I think there is a difference between someone like him who is clearly accomplished as a musician talking about what he does, and people who are clearly better at the talking than the doing.

 

[Lo end PUNCH]

Point is, if you have a musical thought to express, you won't do it with anything other than music. If you need words to "clarify" your thought, you're not where you need to be musically.

I dont agree with this and maybe I'm just having trouble with the wording but If not, this single statement applies to MANY great musicians and pretty much rips them appart.

 

[thepontif]

That doesn't make any sense. It rips no one apart. How many great musicians' music did you hate until you heard them talk about what they're doing? Probably none. They're already getting their point across. I'm not suggesting that great players who make great music shouldn't talk about what they do. By default, there is no "great musician" who would be guilty of what I'm talking about. The point is, when you're learning to play and trying to get better, talking is mostly a wasted effort when what you really need to be doing is playing. And to be clear and fair, ASKING is not what I mean by talking.

And to further clarify, the quote you referenced ended with, "If you need words to clarify your thought, you're not where you need to be musically." That doesn't mean you aren't making great music. It means you aren't being heard the way you want to be. And that is a determination to be made by the musician...not the audience. On a high level, like Mike Gordon for example, you're sure enough about your delivery to say, "this isn't my audience". That's usually not something a beginner should lean on.

 

[Phil Smith]

On a high level, like Mike Gordon for example, you're sure enough about your delivery to say, "this isn't my audience". That's usually not something a beginner should lean on.

Is that actually something that anyone in the entertainment industry can lean on?

 

[Calebmundy]

With individuality not nurtured,while clones are treated like geniuses. Is it hard to recognize a bass player that really have they're own voice.

TO:

With individualty not being nutured while clones are treated like geniuses, is it hard to recognize bass players that really have their own voice?



So Sorry, great discussion, but the form on that question was driving me nuts with every quote. OCD contained-thanks for your indulgence.

 

[thepontif]

Is that actually something that anyone in the entertainment industry can lean on?

Yes. Actually, RELY ON! They have to. Successful bands/musicians wouldn't purposely go to play for audiences they know don't like their music and then try to explain themselves afterward. They know who their audience is and they know how to "speak" to them through their music. I don't think a bass player who is coming out of a "neo-Dead" jam band vibe is going to feel bad about himself if a crowd full of Toby Keith fans hates his music. It's not his audience. No reflection on him OR Toby Keith.

It's leaning when it becomes an excuse for a basic lack of ability. And that hinders one's ability to get better.

 

[Lo end PUNCH]

The point is, when you're learning to play and trying to get better, talking is mostly a wasted effort when what you really need to be doing is playing. And to be clear and fair, ASKING is not what I mean by talking.

Neither did I but the statement didnt involve one LEARNING to play either, it was from what I believe players transfering their thoughts to the music no?, but by the same token I've been to many great shows where a player will TALK about the piece he's going to do before he/she does it, why a certain time sequence, why a certain tone they sought to achieve, why a certain feeling they wanted the listener to have at a certain passage, does this mean that sense they used words to clarify the meaning of the piece that they weren't "where they were supposed to be musically? This is metamorphisizing into too many explanations for one, what I feel, was a very generalized and broad statement. I will just agree to disagree.

 

[thepontif]

Point taken.

 

[thepontif]

I should just leave you with what is hopefully a much more concise version of what I wanted to say in the first place.

You don't play music by talking. ULTIMATELY it comes down to being able to PLAY well enough to express yourself. No amount of talking changes that. No amount of theoretical or philosophical knowledge can substitute for being able to play. The scenario of someone explaining what they're up to in a musical performance doesn't change the fact that they still have to be able to play the music when they're done talking.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

You guys can turn my question into what ever you choose. But it was just a question. Some of you have chosen to turn it into something else. We are all entitled to our opinion and it would have been nice if this thread could have been more civil but then it wouldn't be tb From the response(s) by many to the question it seemed to have offended you. And for those who are offended or simply didn't understand the question do your self a favor and reread it and give it some truthful and open minded thoughts.


There really is truth in my question. Don't get mad at me and come back with your silly attempts at insulting me because it doesn't work. It's interesting how one question can cause so much negativity. I haven't insulted anyone or attempted to and if I did that's on those who have taken the question as such.

The question was just that(a question) but for many it just shows how the extension of self's inner most deepest issues unveils a truth that many simply have serious social issues.

We're living in a time where most musicians are thought of as nothing more than a human prop,pretty much no different than a rubber plant in the background of a movie.

I haven't slung insults at anyone nor am I crying victim. This thread got sidetracked for many reasons but what ever the reason(s) it still comes back to the original question and what was and wasn't comprehended.

 

[wade_b]

It goes back to the masses and what the masses are used to hearing(recognizing)that's coming from a player.

With all due respect: this can be interpreted several ways.

1> a player isn't playing something accessible to the masses.

2> the "masses" aren't capable of recognizing some aspect or aspects of your performance

So - where does that leave "you": not "you" personally, but "you" as in the player?

What can "you" do about that?

It seems that there are several choices:
Stop worrying about the masses: as another poster pointed out, Toby Keith fans aren't likely to give Mike Gordon much love.

Make music that somehow can connect more with the masses.

Seek to "educate" the masses, convince them to recognize that which is different.

Option 3 is a tough road: how can a player of music hope to influence "the masses" in that way? It would seem that this player should become an educator if that is their true goal.

Or perhaps there's a 4th option - channel this passion and conflict back into your music.

 

[Phil Smith]

With individuality not nurtured,while clones are treated like geniuses. Is it hard to recognize a bass player that really have they're own voice.

It's not hard to recognize a bassist that has their own voice because they don't sound like anyone else. It still comes back to the questions; Who in your mind is treated like a genius and is not worthy of it? Furthermore, who is treating them like a genius?

Nobody sounds like Stanley Clarke, nobody sounds like Mark Adams of Slave, and nobody sounds like Charnett Moffett. Only one of these people mentioned are widely heard and still no ones sounds like him.

Is this question you pose really relevant though?

90 to 95% of the work a bassist needs to do has nothing to do with having a unique voice and everything to do with making the music work, no soloing, often just 1 5, Do So, ad infinitum.

 

[jerry]

and nobody sounds like Charnett Moffett. Only one of these people mentioned are widely heard and still no ones sounds like him.

I have nothing to add, but it's nice to see Moffett's name mentioned here on TB, it's been awhile. Great player!

 

[thepontif]

I totally see where Jauqo is coming from. When I was out with DiMeola the fees he got paid in the US were a FRACTION...and a small one at that...of what venues in Europe paid. Look at Vladimir Horowitz as compared to Liberace. Liberace was easier for any schmuck to understand even if you didn't like him, but there was NO DOUBT that Horowitz was 100 classes beyond him as a musician to anybody who knew. And it used to be that when you mentioned Horowitz's name many average people knew who you were talking about. There used to be much more respect for actual skill in an art form. Now the focus is on being entertained. Same can be said for audio equipment. The idea of the "audiophile" is shrinking. With iPods being the medium of choice, very few people know what a fine stereo system sounds like or can appreciate what just 2 speakers accurately reproducing sound is really like. Now it's a million little speakers and loud crashing and booming. What's the point of recording in a multi-million dollar studio so you can mix a project down for playback on a pair of $10.00, half-inch speakers? Entertainment. We don't live in an age of mass concern for subtlety, but what's really unfortunate is that we used to...at least to a much greater degree. I think we're kind of spoiled by technology and a sense of entitlement to being satiated in one way or another.

 

[thepontif]

And you know what, just saying that "all most bass players have to do most of the time is play one and five" embraces mere functionality. Functionality keeps things going, but it doesn't move things forward the way real innovative skill does. I believe we have to strive for excellence as "dues" to our chosen art form. Others are happy being paid to play and it ends there and that's fine too. But it's a small part of the greater equation that describes the evolution of music. What the masses like, ultimately, is artistically meaningless. It doesn't diminish the importance of the art in the big picture.

 

[willgroove2]

And you know what, just saying that "all most bass players have to do most of the time is play one and five" embraces mere functionality. Functionality keeps things going, but it doesn't move things forward the way real innovative skill does. I believe we have to strive for excellence as "dues" to our chosen art form. Others are happy being paid to play and it ends there and that's fine too. But it's a small part of the greater equation that describes the evolution of music. What the masses like, ultimately, is artistically meaningless. It doesn't diminish the importance of the art in the big picture.

One of the thing's I always say to my students once they get past a certain point in their development is "You will have to be better to the music than it may be to you". For me forward motion in development is essential to my playing whether anybody else care's or notices. Being able to function as a Bassist is the core and foundation of what I do and those skill's help me pursue the art of what i do but I do understand that others hear and feel things differently.

 

[Billy Low]

I think that being called to play with John MClaughlin, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Wallace Roney, John Scofield, Pat Metheny, Mike Stern, Wayne Krantz, Meshell N'Degeocello..... (I could go on for another couple of paragraphs) is credit enough for what he's done for the instrument. Not to mention the covers of almost every bass magazine on the planet, a recording career as a band leader selling a good number of albums I'm sure, and being adored by bass players across the planet.

How does this show a lack of credit for the tireless efforts he's put into his music, his playing, and his career.

Also there is this to remember... Matt has been doing what he's been doing for over 15 years....I think people kind of lose track of the timeline of what's going on in the world of music and currently think we're suspended in the late 90's when garrison, fuze, jojo mayer, and all the cats of that generation were becoming most known. Things have changed in a big way, as they always do. Ten years before matt it was dominique di piazza being the innovator. Now he started a lot of the multiple right hand finger technique on the bass for instance, but rarely gets mentioned as much as matt, hadrien, marcus, victor, or myself.

I think everyone moved on. Matt, dominique, all the cats. the days of doing lots of superstar sideman gigs are pretty much over, and being a band leader is becoming more of a focus for most people. I know it is for me, and I'm sure Matt is working on his own music way more than anyone else's. And then people like matt have a beautiful family and a real life that isn't a part of touring 300 days a year, or working on other people's music non stop. I know that's certainly true for me these days, as my focus shifts to my own music, and my home life.

I think posters reactions are so strong because they are not in touch with what is actually going on. The scene people talk about, at least in this thread, is discussing musicians who are living and working in or out of New York for the most part. Maybe Los Angeles a little bit, but mainly NYC. People who have never even been to NYC are posting really strongly about who's doing what etc etc etc, with no clue of what the scene actually is. They buy into each others hype about a certain musician, and it snowballs out of control until what's being written is complete nonsense. That's one of the reasons I try and be so visible online with what I'm actually doing via twitter ( http://twitter.com/Janekgwizdala ) facebook, myspace, youtube, and all the other online outlets In the vague hope that some semblance of reality might insue and people might be hip to what actually goes on in this rather crazy world of music.

Easy,

Janek

Janek,

I am truley glad that time did not allow me to post and allowed you to further expose critical points that go to the belly of this arguement. Initially my posting was not aimed at you personally, but to those who ignorantly place you and others on this invisable etherial bass throne to which all inferior bass players must bow. I believed that you personally were not responsible for this. You really showed yer true colors didn't you. You your self believe the hype!!! How pompous can one be as to slyly suggest that Matt's time has passed and that he has gotten enough credit for his acomplishments and that your time has arrived?!?!? Oh so now Garrison and others who made strides before you hit the scene are no longer relevant?!?! WOW! Yeah, thanks for also stating that those outside of "THE KNOW" don't know! I forgot that there are no innovators or players of substance outside of your innercircle in NYC...oh, excuse me, except for the few in LA. Contrary to the level of maturity and intellect displayed on TB at times many of those who post here have been involved in the community (and have made positive contributions) before you could figure how to hold the instrument.

You have a decent career, some semblance of celebrity, and your own forum on TB....CONGRATS!!! I am happy for you! In the long run it still needs to be stated that you are no different than the rest of us blokes out here in the community. If you are willing to accept the arse kissing that comes with your notoriety, accept the boos as well. Face it, when you first came out, many "in the know" heard Matt's style with your name on it. Big deal. Accept it. Don't believe it? Ask around. Take a poll from those celebrated bass players that you know could be honest with you. You yourself have stated his influence on you. You have found your own voice now. Great. Proud of ya pal!

The long and short of it is that majority of us hold that slab of wood and metal strings and communicate the best way we know how; with variants in talent and skill level. Some of us have achieved different degrees of acclaim independent of individual accomplishment. If we sound like a predecessor...so be it! Just don't expect everyone to be excited when they see what you do. Don't get bent outta shape when people say "YAWN...seen it before. Didn't ______ do that years ago?" and call you on it; and please don't say that they don't know...trust me...they do!

In, closing I would like to add that I am one who does not hide behind anything/anyone when adressing an issue. I have NOOOO problem saying whatever to whomever, WHENEVER! As matter of fact, I could adress this issue with you at the Summer NAMM, the next Winter NAMM, I would even be willing to fly to NYC within the next month and discuss this over tea, if ya like. Hell, PM me, and I will give anyone on this thread my contact info to make arrangements to discuss this offline! I am certain that you would likely pass and let this die and continue to live your life.

Do Your Thang!