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With individuality not nurtured

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This is all a bunch of crap. Jauqo likes to come on here and speak in riddles and half-thoughts and has SOME people believing he's some kinda Socrates of the bass. More like a fortune cookie. He's just jealous that he hasn't received the accolades for his completely original, mind blowing, earth shaking innovations that he just knows will get copied at some point down the line. Of course, he won't come out and say that (has Billy do it for him), he has endorsements to protect.

Slow down gymshoe, I am no man's puppet or mouth piece! :ninja: Check yerself!

Now admittedly, Jauqo is a close and dear friend of mine, but I will and have always spoken independantly. Just as much as he and I agree, we also disagree.

Surely, if you saw us walking down the street together it would be easy to assume that I was his bodygaurd. Believe you me, that would be a wasted thought; he doesn't need one. Neither on the street, the stage, nor on TalkBass.

Purge yourself of such nonsensical thinking. It gets u nowhere.:o
 
A slight aside... I've had the pleasure of meeting Jauqo as well as reading posts here and some correspondence.

All I have to say is for as "Gandolfian" as he may seem to some around here, he is the real deal and a really decent guy.

As to what this thread alludes to, I agree in part but at the same time choose to focus my energy on grooves that make me move and help pay my bills and in doing so hope that all of my fellow "Kafkas" and "VanGoghs" of the bass ;that are out there right now among us all ;do get their day in the sun.

:bassist:
 
Janek,

This does smell a bit like Oteil, no? Too bad he wasn't in Manchester to tell you how well you immitated his style. :rolleyes:



Maybe his time has passed too! Maybe people forgot that this style was associated with him and credit you with such individuality and creativity! Oh no, I get it, EVERYBODY in the NYC innercircle bites everybody elses style and credits nobody but themselves. My bad. Must be that I'm from the backwoods of Chicago and couldn't possibly understand you big city musician type people! I guess it's just that slow midwestern thinking that the new faces of bass shouldn't be up to the tricks of old.

Seems like I get to yawn some more! :o


Somebody stop me before the moderator does! :p:D:p
 
Man, you have a very hateful approach to communication. Singing while playing is one of the oldest tricks in the book. Oteil certainly didn't come up with it. George Benson did it 40 years ago and I'm sure many before him. And I know from playing with Janek that vocalizing is something he does as a natural part of his playing. He's not singing what he's playing. That's just a stupid trick. He's playing what he's singing. The ability to play something with the ease and fluidity that comes as naturally as singing is a serious skill that very, very few possess. The NYC inner circle comment is a cheap shot. In fact, he doesn't even live there anymore. Why so snotty?
 
Billy, come on man, that is pretty disrespectful and completely ignorant. Plus, the NYC comment is just flat-out uncool. Janek is working on the other coast these days.

Many players do it, Rosenwinkle, Jarrett, Krazno, Benson... Indian percussionists have been doing it for hundreds of years. It really helps to come up with new inventive phrasing for melodic ideas a player might have in their head.

Great to see you on here Mike, thanks for chiming in.
 
Janek,

This does smell a bit like Oteil, no? Too bad he wasn't in Manchester to tell you how well you immitated his style. :rolleyes:



Maybe his time has passed too! Maybe people forgot that this style was associated with him and credit you with such individuality and creativity! Oh no, I get it, EVERYBODY in the NYC innercircle bites everybody elses style and credits nobody but themselves. My bad. Must be that I'm from the backwoods of Chicago and couldn't possibly understand you big city musician type people! I guess it's just that slow midwestern thinking that the new faces of bass shouldn't be up to the tricks of old.

Seems like I get to yawn some more! :o


Somebody stop me before the moderator does! :p:D:p


Does it make you feel better to be so confrontational towards Janek OVER THE INTERNET?

It's even more interesting to see you do so without knowing the history of what your're speaking about......

Oteil began doing the vocalizing thing with his soloing on a gig where he was spontaneously challenged to solo like George Benson.....yes, to imitate someone else intentionally. It was done in fun as a musical challenge.

Mike and j-raj said anything else that needed to be said.
 
Man, you have a very hateful approach to communication. Singing while playing is one of the oldest tricks in the book. Oteil certainly didn't come up with it. George Benson did it 40 years ago and I'm sure many before him. And I know from playing with Janek that vocalizing is something he does as a natural part of his playing. He's not singing what he's playing. That's just a stupid trick. He's playing what he's singing. The ability to play something with the ease and fluidity that comes as naturally as singing is a serious skill that very, very few possess. The NYC inner circle comment is a cheap shot. In fact, he doesn't even live there anymore. Why so snotty?

Hi Mike,
Just wondering on the distinction between singing what your playing vs. playing what you're singing. Do you mean singing what you're playing when you already know what you're going to play, like a pre-concieved solo?
 
I think this needs to be said. If the only confrontation people are seeing in this thread is from Billy...
:hmm:

Page after page of "well, name names!" and when a name is named, based on a person's opinion... oh no!
:D


I'm guessing that those involved have thick enough skin to weather the onslaught of internet opinion. I'll admit I'm surprised by some of it, considering the criticism of a professional peer I've seen in the past.
:cool:
 
A little hard to explain because it's easy to make it really ethereal and complicated, but here's a comparison. And bear in mind, I'm making an assumption that this is in the context of improvising as is the case with Janek.

1) When I say "singing what you play" I mean that you are simply mimicking your instrument with your voice.
2) When I say "playing what you sing" what I mean is that you are having a musical idea and it's coming out of both your mouth and your instrument simultaneously.

Does that make sense?

I just think most improvisers wish they could make the things they hear in their heads come out on their instruments as easily as they can sing them.

Sorry if that's still a little vague.
 
A little hard to explain because it's easy to make it really ethereal and complicated, but here's a comparison. And bear in mind, I'm making an assumption that this is in the context of improvising as is the case with Janek.

1) When I say "singing what you play" I mean that you are simply mimicking your instrument with your voice.
2) When I say "playing what you sing" what I mean is that you are having a musical idea and it's coming out of both your mouth and your instrument simultaneously.

Does that make sense?

I just think most improvisers wish they could make the things they hear in their heads come out on their instruments as easily as they can sing them.

Sorry if that's still a little vague.

Nah, this has nothing to do with Janek. The reason I asked is because most bassists I know can't even mimic what they play. They have no genuine idea what might "come out of their hands" when they're soloing unless it's something they've done a million times. As such, I never really saw that as a stupid trick, rather a way to get closer to putting what's in your head on the fingerboard.

In essence it's a path to playing what you sing. Does that make sense?
 
I do not need Billy Low to speak for me. he's an individual with a very bright mind and he calls it like he see's it.

My question was a truth that has really struck some nerves hard core. But when it's all said and done it is what it is.

We do live in a society where cloning has become the norm and it is widely accepted,especially by those who feel that the greatest form of imitation or heritage stealing is the new form of flattery.

If anything this thread should be an introduction to the roots,origins and history of where many aspects of bass playing comes from.

I'm sure some of you know that Oteil was not the first bass player to scat/vocalize or what ever you want to call it. It was being done many years before Oteil was even born.
 
I do not need Billy Low to speak for me. he's an individual with a very bright mind and he calls it like he see's it.

My question was a truth that has really struck some nerves hard core. But when it's all said and done it is what it is.

We do live in a society where cloning has become the norm and it is widely accepted,especially by those who feel that the greatest form of imitation or heritage stealing is the new form of flattery.

If anything this thread should be an introduction to the roots,origins and history of where many aspects of bass playing comes from.

I'm sure some of you know that Oteil was not the first bass player to scat/vocalize or what ever you want to call it. It was being done many years before Oteil was even born.
Where do you see the line between drawing inspiration from and cloning?
 
The ability to play something with the ease and fluidity that comes as naturally as singing is a serious skill that very, very few possess.

How does that compare to what Esperanda Spalding does? Is what she does more of that skill or a different one, in your opinion?
 
WOW!

well billy, thanks for that. In tearing me a new one in some wild defense of Otiel Burbridge, (not that I really think he needs defending, and may well laugh hysterically if he was ever bored enough to read this thread) you've just generated a new flood of replies, comments, and thoughts about exactly the thing you seem to hate. Me. I find it totally unnecessary and pointless as the internet would certainly be a better place without yet more posts of total nonsense, especially total nonsense about me.

Just to put one thing straight, I don't no longer live in NYC.... I just have a place on both coasts and go back and forth right now. Why? you might ask. I keep asking myself the same thing every time I check in at JFK or LAX to sit on yet another 5hr flight..... but the sun sure shines more in LA in the winter time.

I thank Mike for stepping in here and being one of the few people who's musical and general opinion I respect most highly on almost any subject I've ever talked to him about. he's right on the money with the singing thing. I DON'T SING. listen to it!!!!! I hate singing, I suck at it, I never have a mic in front of me, and I would never subject an audience to my singing, especially if they paid to see my show. It's just my musical thought process in my head coming out vocally at the same time I play.

So quite how you can be so short sighted in drawing parallels between me and Otiel is beyond me. Otiel has a full-on incredible voice, one which I'm in awe of. He's one of the baddest dudes out there, and I'm blown away every time I hear him. He's actually one of the people I have hardly checked out at all though, so it really surprises me further when you make such a damning statement about me ripping off his style of playing. I love him to bits, and would never be cheap enough to just play exclusively like him and palm that off to my audience as being my own.

what is the fascination of "giving credit"?!?! you are obsessed. and seem to know nothing of the history of music whatsoever. I'm really getting pissed off now because once you can forgive, twice is a misstep, but the amount you spout on about the the same misinformed ideas, using them to bash on my career and playing.... well that's enough.

You want to talk about credit??!?!! talk about miles davis taking credit for over a dozen songs he didn't write in the height of his stardom. talk about musicians that play on landmark albums that change the face of modern music and don't even get their name in the liner notes, let alone of free copy of what they played on. Why don't you actually do 3% of the homework I, or any other player in the real world has done, get your facts straight, and then maybe we might be able to have a conversation about something that might educate people (ME INCLUDED) rather than be this pissing match of total and utter nonsense that you're feeding any unsuspecting young musician that might read this message board.

As always when something like this comes along that is so obviously out of whack I genuinely offer a helping hand in any way I can. It's so far from being reality that there's something or someone that needs help, and I honestly will do anything I can to help should that person reach out and ask.

I truly love what I do. I do it honestly and without complaint. I work as hard as I possibly can day in and day out to be not just a better musician, but a better human being. I am incredibly fortunate to have garnered some minor success in this vast abyss of an industry that I chose to work in, and I am forever grateful to those around me for giving me a chance to perform when they have. To have any aspect of this cut down to being a clone, fake, rip off, or any of the other things that have been mentioned here on this thread, is not exactly what you might call encouraging.

You might ask yourself this simple question before you post such nonsense about me at.

Why?


Easy,

Janek
 
and just in case the abuse on the public thread wasn't enough, I find this waiting in my inbox. I'm sure Billy won't mind it being posted, as he says so in the end of the message. and I quote "I have NOOOO problem saying whatever to whomever, WHENEVER!"

"Janek,

I am truley glad that time did not allow me to post and allowed you to further expose critical points that go to the belly of this arguement. Initially my posting was not aimed at you personally, but to those who ignorantly place you and others on this invisable etherial bass throne to which all inferior bass players must bow. I believed that you personally were not responsible for this. You really showed yer true colors didn't you. You your self believe the hype!!! How pompous can one be as to slyly suggest that Matt's time has passed and that he has gotten enough credit for his acomplishments and that your time has arrived?!?!? Oh so now Garrison and others who made strides before you hit the scene are no longer relevant?!?! WOW! Yeah, thanks for also stating that those outside of "THE KNOW" don't know! I forgot that there are no innovators or players of substance outside of your innercircle in NYC...oh, excuse me, except for the few in LA. Contrary to the level of maturity and intellect displayed on TB at times many of those who post here have been involved in the community (and have made positive contributions) before you could figure how to hold the instrument.

You have a decent career, some semblance of celebrity, and your own forum on TB....CONGRATS!!! I am happy for you! In the long run it still needs to be stated that you are no different than the rest of us blokes out here in the community. If you are willing to accept the arse kissing that comes with your notoriety, accept the boos as well. Face it, when you first came out, many "in the know" heard Matt's style with your name on it. Big deal. Accept it. Don't believe it? Ask around. Take a poll from those celebrated bass players that you know could be honest with you. You yourself have stated his influence on you. You have found your own voice now. Great. Proud of ya pal!

The long and short of it is that majority of us hold that slab of wood and metal strings and communicate the best way we know how; with variants in talent and skill level. Some of us have achieved different degrees of acclaim independent of individual accomplishment. If we sound like a predecessor...so be it! Just don't expect everyone to be excited when they see what you do. Don't get bent outta shape when people say "YAWN...seen it before. Didn't ______ do that years ago?" and call you on it; and please don't say that they don't know...trust me...they do!

In, closing I would like to add that I am one who does not hide behind anything/anyone when adressing an issue. I have NOOOO problem saying whatever to whomever, WHENEVER! As matter of fact, I could adress this issue with you at the Summer NAMM, the next Winter NAMM, I would even be willing to fly to NYC within the next month and discuss this over tea, if ya like. Hell, PM me, and I will give anyone on this thread my contact info to make arrangements to discuss this offline! I am certain that you would likely pass and let this die and continue to live your life.

Do Your Thang!"



Billy,

you need help man. I'm not sure any amount of discussion online is going to work right now.

Easy,

Janek
 
I do not need Billy Low to speak for me. he's an individual with a very bright mind and he calls it like he see's it.

My question was a truth that has really struck some nerves hard core. But when it's all said and done it is what it is.

We do live in a society where cloning has become the norm and it is widely accepted,especially by those who feel that the greatest form of imitation or heritage stealing is the new form of flattery.

If anything this thread should be an introduction to the roots,origins and history of where many aspects of bass playing comes from.

I'm sure some of you know that Oteil was not the first bass player to scat/vocalize or what ever you want to call it. It was being done many years before Oteil was even born.

Jauqo, with all due respect, one of the reason this thread went downhill was your unwillingless to put forward names. Certain players were put forwrad by a friend of yours, leading most to conclude that these were the players you were talking about.

Now, arguments are getting circular, as you state the matter of clones being heralded as genius as absolute fact, depite refusing to mention who, how, by whom. If you refuse to say who you're talking about, how can there be any more meaningful debate? If you are talking about who we think you're talking about, could you please give sound MUSICAL (melodic, harmornic, rhythmic) evidence as to WHY they're clones rather than just telling us to listen and that the hype is all around us and if we can't hear it the problem is with us and that what you say is the absolute truth?
 
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