With individuality not nurtured

[EddieG]

Jauqo, would you say you had your own voice?

 

[Dertygen]

I've often wondered why people who seem to dislike Jauqo so much always seem to end up in his threads?

You have to have been in the thread in the first place before you could dislike him.

And maybe that guy just doesn't like JAUQO's constant vague statements and wanted to voice it?

 

[BuffaloBass]

I'm going to "man down" and admit I'm no pro like Jauqo or Janek and maybe others here. But I enjoy listening to other bassists work, not to cop it, but to see how they express themseves. Maybe its my age or depth of life expereince, or pure ignorance, or the fact that I lock my ego in a box and only unass it when I need it, but, I dont pay mind to any of it of the things y'all speak of.

It doesnt express the essence of mother music to me. A good bassist is one that lets us see his/her soul though expression on the instrument. Which, for the constrained roles we usually play, aint all that easy to do or show. But some of y'all truly do. And those of you that do, are truly the artists imho. And that is what I strive for.

Or put another way, clones are pussies with no imaginations. Like a bad date.

I jest, but I had to say it.....

Oh Jauqo assuredly has his own voice, I can sometimes not understand it, but I recognize its musicality, which is what draws me to it.

 

[jonster]

Even if you copied a Victor Wooten solo note for note, or Jaco or Brian Bromberg or Stu Hamm or Jeff Berlin or anyone else, you would still sound like YOU and not them. You'll always be you, like it or not.

Jon Liebman
Invalid Link Removed

 

[Brad Johnson]

You have to have been in the thread in the first place before you could dislike him.

That makes no sense. He talked about things he thinks Jauqo did prior to this thread.

And maybe that guy just doesn't like JAUQO's constant vague statements and wanted to voice it?

By following him into another one of his threads? Yeah, that's not lame.

 

[phektus]

Originality could also come from intent. Even if you end up sounding like somebody else, if you haven't heard that somebody before that can still count as original.

On the other hand you may have been a conscious copycat from the beginning, but the end result is something fresh, albeit not your intention. Does that make you original? Surely not your intent, but when the masses (hopefully) hears your bass line and it sounded unique you will definitely (or most probably) be regarded as original.

This is all too subjective. Quite a surprise bassists love talking about these things, but I guess being a musician involves a lot of intellectual masturbation.

 

[sonicnuance]

With individuality not nurtured,while clones are treated like geniuses. Is it hard to recognize a bass player that really have they're own voice.

I don't intend this to come off as confrontational, but is it more important to have your own voice or to make good music?

Being different for the sake of "originality" is missing the point IMHO

 

[fountain boy]

im not involving myself in this tomfoolery

 

[willgroove2]

you guys are pretty funny in the back and forth about the garrison cloning thing. I though Barak Obama was allowing stem cell research but not allowing human cloning...? the way some people on this forum have me and hadrien strung up right now, we'll go down for years without the chance for parole!

But of course, it's once again the short sighted view of people who care so little about music and only about "technique". Technique, of course, being nothing to do with how fast you play, but to do with if you are able to express your original and unique musial ideas through your chosen instrument. I consider Charlie Haden for instance to have immense amounts of technique, yet you have probably never heard him play anything fast in his vast recorded history on the instrument.

"oh, Janek and Hadrien use four fingers on the right hand to play the bass...." so that means we sound exactly like mateo garrison? I think not at all. I was just in Paris last week hanging with Hadrien and playing at a bunch of clubs there with him. Sooooo much fun, so incredibly musical, and totally grooving. Not a single mention of mateo, not a single performance of one of mateo's songs, and a lot of smiling faces and happy audience members wherever we went. We played music, our music. Very simple, mainly jamming as we were sitting in together with other bands, but just fun.

Then it comes to a forum such as this one where some people seem to miss the point of what is going on the world. The world outside their computer, outside youtube, outside some tiny little facet of someones playing they might have checked out and made all their assessments of that person based on very little information. I'm not here to bitch and moan about it, I really don't care. People who are negative are thankfully generally in the minority, but I would say go check out way more of people's work before you make such incredibly misdirected statements about them.

"Billy Low" for instance, why did you make such a statement? and then "dare someone to dispute it.." that really makes no sense at all. When there are a million other more positive things you could have said about anything musical in the world, why did you choose that? you obviously don't understand that music is an art form passed on from generation to generation. It's communicated through playing with other people, and through listening to records. Records contain performances by all the people you mentioned. Performances influence younger musicians, and YES, what do you know? those younger musicians go on to have careers and make money, and even make a name for themselves. Quite how do you think it should be? everyone should pay no attention to what went on before them? and start from scratch in total isolation on their own, and never reference people they are fans of?

Why did you not reference marcus miller and victor wooten as being byproducts of Larry Graham? or are marcus and victor sacred because of the incredible influence they have had on modern music? no, of course they're not.

I do resent being told who I do and do not give credit to, so you can maybe check that statement at the door next time. I used to hang with Matt all the time, and of course he was a huge influence on me when I first moved to NYC and was checking out all his stuff, and seeing him play live with some of my heros like Herbie, joe, and McLaughlin. But really, could you not put on one of my albums and then one of his and hear just a few differences in style, writing, tone, time? maybe not. again, it really doesn't bother me, I'm just trying to raise a pretty obvious point that seems to have been totally missed by some people on this thread.

I remain, as always, available for comment and discussion on my section of this forum.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=155

Easy,

Janek

Janek, I give you credit for directly addressing the subject. For me the first time I heard what I consider the "New wave" of bass styling was Matt G fallowed by yourself,Hadrian, tony grey ect (although Chris Tarry comes to mind also in that family tree maybe a little closer to the root) But like most guys who were innovators IMO Matt doesn't get enough credit except by the people who call him for gig's that is. Matt has a teacher's spirit and is wide open,I noticed that when I met him in the '90's at a club in Chicago. Younger players building on what has went on before them to build their careers is the way the world works but too often people push aside or diminish the forerunners so perhaps thats why some posters reaction's are so strong.

I remember watching a documentary about some blues players and they asked on of the subject how he felt about being less well known than many of the artist who name checked him and he smiled and said "In the end it's all about the music anyway"

 

[DWBass]

Even if you copied a Victor Wooten solo note for note, or Jaco or Brian Bromberg or Stu Hamm or Jeff Berlin or anyone else, you would still sound like YOU and not them. You'll always be you, like it or not.

Jon Liebman
Invalid Link Removed

Hmmm....Peter Muller! What say you? He even holds his thumb like Marcus! If I didn't know it was Peter playing, I would most assuredly bet it was Marcus!

 

[kenlacam]

Agreed. For example, a lot of dudes who can emulate Jaco P, they sound like clones and are not recognizable as an individual who is capable of creativity.

 

[user3653753]

This is all a bunch of crap. Jauqo likes to come on here and speak in riddles and half-thoughts and has SOME people believing he's some kinda Socrates of the bass. More like a fortune cookie. He's just jealous that he hasn't received the accolades for his completely original, mind blowing, earth shaking innovations that he just knows will get copied at some point down the line. Of course, he won't come out and say that (has Billy do it for him), he has endorsements to protect.

The fact of the matter is it all comes out in the wash. People listen to what they like. Period. Unfortunately, that means that art that appeals to the lowest common denominator will always sell more and receive more attention than less accessible work. Every artist in the world knows this. Every artist makes a decision at some point about which is more important, success or honesty. Having made that decision, don't knock the people that went the other way. There's more integrity in feeding your family than there is in artistic honesty.

So I'm done with this thread. If Jaco...I mean Jauquo, wants to man up and actually make some statements he can stand behind, someone let me know.

damn!!! really wish I'd seen this before I posted anything. many apologies, I don't think I really would have had anything to say after reading this. not even the fact that it was directed at one person, just the jist of the text.

And also the fact that people hide behind all kinds of things online, rarely make themselves visible, and rarely putting their money where their mouth is. What I think is so fundamentally silly about that attitude of hiding online in order to say something you feel might rub some people the wrong way, is that it's only your opinion. if someone chooses to get pissed off about your opinion, then they are the one that has an issue. Of course, when you voice your opinion as the gospel and ram it down some younger more naive individuals throat, that becomes a little derogatory to the educational process. Why people can't be honest, to the point, and not hark on like they are god, budda, socrates (I really did love that reference beggar) or any other form of babbling spiritual leader of the bass is beyond me. honest opinion can incite great discussion, but only if the ego and insecurity is checked at the door.

Easy,

Janek

 

[user3653753]

Janek, I give you credit for directly addressing the subject. For me the first time I heard what I consider the "New wave" of bass styling was Matt G fallowed by yourself,Hadrian, tony grey ect (although Chris Tarry comes to mind also in that family tree maybe a little closer to the root) But like most guys who were innovators IMO Matt doesn't get enough credit except by the people who call him for gig's that is. Matt has a teacher's spirit and is wide open,I noticed that when I met him in the '90's at a club in Chicago. Younger players building on what has went on before them to build their careers is the way the world works but too often people push aside or diminish the forerunners so perhaps thats why some posters reaction's are so strong.

I remember watching a documentary about some blues players and they asked on of the subject how he felt about being less well known than many of the artist who name checked him and he smiled and said "In the end it's all about the music anyway"

I think that being called to play with John MClaughlin, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Wallace Roney, John Scofield, Pat Metheny, Mike Stern, Wayne Krantz, Meshell N'Degeocello..... (I could go on for another couple of paragraphs) is credit enough for what he's done for the instrument. Not to mention the covers of almost every bass magazine on the planet, a recording career as a band leader selling a good number of albums I'm sure, and being adored by bass players across the planet.

How does this show a lack of credit for the tireless efforts he's put into his music, his playing, and his career.

Also there is this to remember... Matt has been doing what he's been doing for over 15 years....I think people kind of lose track of the timeline of what's going on in the world of music and currently think we're suspended in the late 90's when garrison, fuze, jojo mayer, and all the cats of that generation were becoming most known. Things have changed in a big way, as they always do. Ten years before matt it was dominique di piazza being the innovator. Now he started a lot of the multiple right hand finger technique on the bass for instance, but rarely gets mentioned as much as matt, hadrien, marcus, victor, or myself.

I think everyone moved on. Matt, dominique, all the cats. the days of doing lots of superstar sideman gigs are pretty much over, and being a band leader is becoming more of a focus for most people. I know it is for me, and I'm sure Matt is working on his own music way more than anyone else's. And then people like matt have a beautiful family and a real life that isn't a part of touring 300 days a year, or working on other people's music non stop. I know that's certainly true for me these days, as my focus shifts to my own music, and my home life.

I think posters reactions are so strong because they are not in touch with what is actually going on. The scene people talk about, at least in this thread, is discussing musicians who are living and working in or out of New York for the most part. Maybe Los Angeles a little bit, but mainly NYC. People who have never even been to NYC are posting really strongly about who's doing what etc etc etc, with no clue of what the scene actually is. They buy into each others hype about a certain musician, and it snowballs out of control until what's being written is complete nonsense. That's one of the reasons I try and be so visible online with what I'm actually doing via twitter ( http://twitter.com/Janekgwizdala ) facebook, myspace, youtube, and all the other online outlets In the vague hope that some semblance of reality might insue and people might be hip to what actually goes on in this rather crazy world of music.

Easy,

Janek

 

[Dr_Funkdamental]

As far as the thread, I think if you continue to strive to achieve what you want as a musician, then more power to you, whether that be to sound like a second Damian Erskine or to try something original. Just like some ppl dont desire to play out or get gigs and some want to rock out the world. I know a gospel bassist I came up with in NC (look up Therman "Peanut" Woods on youtube) that would destroy alot of recording bassists, but he doesnt desire to venture out past his city. Is that wrong? I think this is similar. Some ppl really want to sound like their influence, some do not. People often say be the best you can be, but then want to dictate what the standard of 'best' is. I think most of the treated like a genius part has nothing to do with the individual anyway, it has to do with the listeners.

 

[willgroove2]

I think that being called to play with John MClaughlin, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Wallace Roney, John Scofield, Pat Metheny, Mike Stern, Wayne Krantz, Meshell N'Degeocello..... (I could go on for another couple of paragraphs) is credit enough for what he's done for the instrument. Not to mention the covers of almost every bass magazine on the planet, a recording career as a band leader selling a good number of albums I'm sure, and being adored by bass players across the planet.

How does this show a lack of credit for the tireless efforts he's put into his music, his playing, and his career.

Also there is this to remember... Matt has been doing what he's been doing for over 15 years....I think people kind of lose track of the timeline of what's going on in the world of music and currently think we're suspended in the late 90's when garrison, fuze, jojo mayer, and all the cats of that generation were becoming most known. Things have changed in a big way, as they always do. Ten years before matt it was dominique di piazza being the innovator. Now he started a lot of the multiple right hand finger technique on the bass for instance, but rarely gets mentioned as much as matt, hadrien, marcus, victor, or myself.

I think everyone moved on. Matt, dominique, all the cats. the days of doing lots of superstar sideman gigs are pretty much over, and being a band leader is becoming more of a focus for most people. I know it is for me, and I'm sure Matt is working on his own music way more than anyone else's. And then people like matt have a beautiful family and a real life that isn't a part of touring 300 days a year, or working on other people's music non stop. I know that's certainly true for me these days, as my focus shifts to my own music, and my home life.

I think posters reactions are so strong because they are not in touch with what is actually going on. The scene people talk about, at least in this thread, is discussing musicians who are living and working in or out of New York for the most part. Maybe Los Angeles a little bit, but mainly NYC. People who have never even been to NYC are posting really strongly about who's doing what etc etc etc, with no clue of what the scene actually is. They buy into each others hype about a certain musician, and it snowballs out of control until what's being written is complete nonsense. That's one of the reasons I try and be so visible online with what I'm actually doing via twitter ( http://twitter.com/Janekgwizdala ) facebook, myspace, youtube, and all the other online outlets In the vague hope that some semblance of reality might insue and people might be hip to what actually goes on in this rather crazy world of music.

Easy,

Janek

I feel you but I guess what I mean is in this new information age(it's incredible how much a persons info is not only available but expected)Matt is not the new flavor so, it seems he's pushed aside. Like i said Matt is well known to the people that really matter,the people who call him for gig's, so we agree there.

 

[wade_b]

I'm a nobody, not seeking to elevate my status in any way...

That said: cats like Santana, Mike Gordon, and to an extent Jauquo have all spoken of a spiritual connection to music that they feel is important.

These same guys also get flack from observers: words like pretentious, Socrates, preaching......

I understand this: religion can be offensive.

But - what if they really do feel this way, and are struggling to communicate something that is difficult to put into words?

What if some others actually can be inspired by these words?

Am I speaking in riddles now? Not really - again I'm really nobody, and I'm certainly no Socrates.

But I for one do relate somewhat to the spiritual side of things; it's a safe bet others do too.

 

[Belka]

I think I see a connection:

George Lucas brings you "Bass Wars"

Episode 1 - The Feraud Menace

Episode 2 - Attack of the Clones

Episode 3 - Revenge of the Slap

Episode 4 - A new (Mike) Pope

Episode 5 - The (Fodera NYC) Empire strikes back

Episode 6 - Return of the Jauqo

Starring Vinny Fodera as the "Emporer", and featuring Janek Gwizdala, Hadrien Feraud, Tony Grey, and Matt Garrison as "Imperial" stormtroopers. Coming soon to a Gospelchops DVD near you. The soundtrack features a four finger bass orchestra arrangement of John Williams's "the Imperial March"

 

[mr_mofong0]

To my ears, TRYING to be innovative (i.e. intentionally making an effort to stand out, without regard for musical common sense and consideration for the other musicians and your audience) makes one sound pretentious and contrived. Like speaking in a fake English accent so people will think you're smart or sophisticated.

Better to be derivative than contrived.

Better to LISTEN to something derivative than something pretentious.

Not to mention it's ALL derivative. We're talking about 12 notes. As a human, you are an individual because of the DNA you carry and the experiences you've had in your life. But we're all working with the material that already exists in the gene pool and our culture. Same goes for music. Unless you're from another planet, in which case I'm sure we'd all love to hear from you.

Anyone could decide to make something "original" by playing the bass using a hair dryer, or throwing it down a flight of stairs, or putting on a 78th low string, just because it's never been done before. Even if you do come up with a cool innovation, other bassists are the only ones who will take note in most cases.

Different doesn't always mean better. And it certainly doesn't always mean musical or pleasant to listen to, either.

To me (just some schmuck) being a bassist has always meant first checking your ego at the door. By becoming bassists, we agreed to humble ourselves and serve music before ourselves. Which seems to be the exact opposite of what this particular thread is about.

As bassists, we are covering only part of the musical spectrum, no matter how hard we try to be definitive. Which means, by definition, we are team players. Instead of self-serving and myopic verbal masturbation about who can be more "original" than the next cat, maybe we should be talking about ways we can serve the other players in the band, the song, and most importantly the music.

If your own individuality and soul happens to show through in the process, well good on ya!



Just my $.02....carry on.

 

[kirkm24]

I think a lot of today's young bassist focus way too much on gear, flash and soloing versus supporting an ensemble. Do we need to hear a solo from every bass player in every band at every gig? Is there even a need to play so fast that individual notes can no longer be heard? It's fine to have a 'voice' but I'd much rather hear a really tight ensemble. I don't think I, personally, have a "voice". I have taken bits and pieces of different players and incorporated into my own way of playing but I've never tried to sound like anyone.

Amen!

I'd rather just play in a band and do a good job at it then be a soloist... but that's just me.

 

[thepontif]

Wow. Well personally, I'm with Janek on this. First of all, if you can't tell the difference between Matt, and Hadrien, and Janek in the first 3 notes, you don't know enough about their respective playing styles to have an educated opinion. How you learn how to play does have a lot to do with how you play. But trying to take the position that you must learn how to play in a particular way so that you end up sounding a certain way is ridiculous. You'll reinvent yourself over and over as your perspective in life changes. The most important thing is to discover yourself musically. The things that are important to us will change and that will most likely drive our musical impetus more than anything else.

There are many educational resources for musicians out there right now, but they're all totally useless for people who don't have a basic musical drive in them. And by that, I don't mean people who want to impress other people as much as they were impressed by a particular musician. I mean people like Matt, and Janek, and Hadrien, and Chris Tarry, and me, and Marcus Miller, and Victor Wooten, Joe Blow, Bob McGillicutty...whoever it is, well known or not...who simply have music in them that needs to come out. Discovering what that music is and how to make it...that's what we need to learn. Not "what's the difference between a German 6th chord and a doubly-augmented 6th chord?"