Woman Profiled on 9/11

[Relic]

Since it means nothing to you, then there is no sense in continuing here, but it does mean something to you or you wouldn't keep on hitting me with the whole paranoia straw man.

I've ignored that statement because it has nothing to do with any of my posts.
You have your uninformed mind made up and there's no changing it - I will continue to question what I believe and adjust my opinions when I find reason to do so. You on the other hand will continue to call people paranoid when they come up with anything you don't agree with.

Listen dude, I'm not calling you paranoid or trying to be nasty to you or anything of the sort, I'm saying that you sound paranoid to me because there seems to be no other point here except "the Koran is full of violence".
And this is what I don't understand... Let's say that it is (I never argued that it is or isn't, correct?) - given that there are not hoards of Muslims coming to kill us, then what does it matter what their book says?
If you're going to cite 9/11 or other Muslim-committed atrocities, then I'm telling you that it takes more than just words in a book to create a terrorist, does it not? That's my point.
If we cant see eye to eye, then we shake hands and move on, no biggie

 

[Deleted member 92857]

The problem with many religious people is that they either don't follow their own rule book or apply it more vigorusly to others than they apply it to themselves.

Many (most?) major religions have some statement similar to the Second Commandment: Love your neighbor as yourself. but the practicioners of the faith begin to add:

Except when.....
only when....
If they.....
but.....

 

[aborgman]

Since it means nothing to you, then there is no sense in continuing here, but it does mean something to you or you wouldn't keep on hitting me with the whole paranoia straw man.

I've ignored that statement because it has nothing to do with any of my posts.
You have your uninformed mind made up and there's no changing it - I will continue to question what I believe and adjust my opinions when I find reason to do so. You on the other hand will continue to call people paranoid when they come up with anything you don't agree with.

What are your odds of getting killed by a terrorist?

What are your odds of getting killed by an Islamist terrorist?

What are your odds of getting killed by a comet?

Which of these do you worry about more?

Irrational fear is paranoia, whether you want to believe it's irrational or not.

 

[Tegzsa]

Still, my main point in that last post was that you cannot know what is in the books that people read by simply being around them.

True, and you also can not be sure that they are reading the books particularly carefully themselves anyway. Nor can you be sure about what they are getting out of the reading, or how they are processing it with respect to how you do yourself. (Incidentally, you still seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I have not closely read the texts in question)

This is also very similar to the point I made about the illogicality of saying "Mein Kampf" being on the bestseller list means X about a country (I know it was not you who said this).

In terms of the texts:

Just as peaceful Christians are capable of bypassing or reinterpreting the more warfarin sections of the Bible, and just as peaceful Jews can do the same with the Torah, peaceful Muslims are perfectly capable of doing exactly the same thing with the Koran. Just because you (again, not you personally) may believe that a book has a certain interpretation, that does not mean that it is actually being interpreted that way by a majority of its readers. With religious books, I think it is possible to say that history has repeatedly shown that there is no "correct" interpretation, merely a succession of popular ones.

 

[SteveC]

What happened to the woman is a real bummer, and it really sucked to be her. But what if one of the men she was sitting next to really was a security threat? What should they have done with her? Sorry for my non-PC perspective, but they did exactly what I would want them to do: find out what's up. It is unfortunate for American citizens of Middle-Eastern descent but, despite the government's insistence that they don't profile, they do profile and they will keep profiling. I don't necessarily have a problem with that, given the demographic of certain groups of people who have vowed to kill others who do not share their beliefs.

Don't apologize for not being PC.

 

[micromo]

It doesn't matter which religion or philosophy you follow, an individual can interpret or distort any book to suit his or her purposes if they really want to.

 

[Deleted member 92857]

Self (and loved ones) preservation trumps political correctness in my book every time. If you and I encounter a terrorist and he/she does their worst, and I save myself by observing and reacting to his/her (fill in profile criteria here) and you don't, call me a selfish, racist, profiling &%^ if you like. I'll call you wonderfully open-minded, diverse, and politically correct... at your funeral.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

Listen dude, I'm not calling you paranoid or trying to be nasty to you or anything of the sort, I'm saying that you sound paranoid to me because there seems to be no other point here except "the Koran is full of violence".
And this is what I don't understand... Let's say that it is (I never argued that it is or isn't, correct?) - given that there are not hoards of Muslims coming to kill us, then what does it matter what their book says?
If you're going to cite 9/11 or other Muslim-committed atrocities, then I'm telling you that it takes more than just words in a book to create a terrorist, does it not? That's my point.
If we cant see eye to eye, then we shake hands and move on, no biggie

+1. To add to this point, I've taught 7th grade history and part of the curriculum is exposing the students to world religions. I've read parts of the koran. Like any religious book it is for the most part it's doctrine is peaceful, and just like any religious book there are stories of violence. One of the biggest misconception is that one the Muslim's pillars is 'jihad', which it is not. There are five basic pillars (principles) of the Muslim faith - profession of faith (shahada), the five daily prayers (salat), almsgiving (zakat), fasting (sawm), and pilgrimage to mecca (hajj). These pillars are focused on spiritual improvement of the individual muslim. Some are pretty cool in my opinion. Zakat, for example, teaches a muslim to give to and accomodate the poor. Jihad is not a pillar of the faith, but a tenant of the religion. It is often misunderstood to mean 'holy war', but it actually means 'to struggle by exhausting all efforts' in order to please god. This could apply to both an individual (a person struggling with quitting smoking for example, or simply keeping their faith) or a collective (peaceful protest, make community decisions about certain things, or even a community coming together to achieve a goal like building something). A muslim, like most religions, is taught that murder is wrong, especially the murder of innocents. In it's extremes, Jihad is sited in order to justify war and terrorist acts. Most muslims will point out that they do not advocate these acts because it goes against their faith, and most muslims denounce acts of terrorism and murder (just like most religions). I do not have a dog in this fight, I myself am an athiest, but if, as a people, we are to coexist, we should at least understand the basics of where each other is coming from, IMO.

 

[Akami]

Listen dude, I'm not calling you paranoid or trying to be nasty to you or anything of the sort, I'm saying that you sound paranoid to me because there seems to be no other point here except "the Koran is full of violence".
And this is what I don't understand... Let's say that it is (I never argued that it is or isn't, correct?) - given that there are not hoards of Muslims coming to kill us, then what does it matter what their book says?
If you're going to cite 9/11 or other Muslim-committed atrocities, then I'm telling you that it takes more than just words in a book to create a terrorist, does it not? That's my point.
If we cant see eye to eye, then we shake hands and move on, no biggie

Okay, I see the difference. So, the reason it matters is that one of the points made is that they are supposed to live peacefully within whatever society they are in at the time only so long as they do not have the strength to do battle. Once they do have the strength to do so, it becomes their obligation to wage war, in both small and large ways.
Definitely takes more to make a terrorist than a book, but the book spells the path, and those who believe wholeheartedly in the book fan the flames to exhort those who would follow such a path.

What are your odds of getting killed by a terrorist?
What are your odds of getting killed by an Islamist terrorist?
What are your odds of getting killed by a comet?
Which of these do you worry about more?
Irrational fear is paranoia, whether you want to believe it's irrational or not.

Don't know the answers to your questions so please post them next time, but in a different threads on odds of dying by various means.
Your last point seems so obvious that it begs the posting of an accompanying point - just because you hide from the truth with your head under a rock doesn't mean you have nothing to be concerned about.

True, and you also can not be sure that they are reading the books particularly carefully themselves anyway. Nor can you be sure about what they are getting out of the reading, or how they are processing it with respect to how you do yourself. (Incidentally, you still seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I have not closely read the texts in question)

This is also very similar to the point I made about the illogicality of saying "Mein Kampf" being on the bestseller list means X about a country (I know it was not you who said this).

In terms of the texts:

Just as peaceful Christians are capable of bypassing or reinterpreting the more warfarin sections of the Bible, and just as peaceful Jews can do the same with the Torah, peaceful Muslims are perfectly capable of doing exactly the same thing with the Koran. Just because you (again, not you personally) may believe that a book has a certain interpretation, that does not mean that it is actually being interpreted that way by a majority of its readers. With religious books, I think it is possible to say that history has repeatedly shown that there is no "correct" interpretation, merely a succession of popular ones.

The big difference is that you can find nowhere in the muslim texts suggesting forgiveness for non-muslims, love for their enemies or anything but contempt for non-muslims as opposed to love for all, regardless of race or religion.
The bible has warlike sections in the old testament while the islam texts spend most of their space to the denigration of non-muslims and exhortation of warfare.

 

[Tegzsa]

The big difference is that you can find nowhere in the muslim texts suggesting forgiveness for non-muslims, love for their enemies or anything but contempt for non-muslims as opposed to love for all, regardless of race or religion.

Nowhere? Well, let's see:

Those who believe (in the Quran and the prophets sent before), Jews, Christians and Sabians; whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 2:62

Let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Deal justly: that is nearer to Godfearing. 5:8

Say: "We believe in God, and that which has been sent down to us, and sent down on Abraham and Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob, and the Tribes, and in that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and the Prophets, of their Lord; we make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we surrender" 3:84.

Good and evil deeds are not equal. Repel evil with what is better; you will see that he with whom you had enmity has become your dearest friend 41:34

There is no compulsion in religion. True guidance is distinct from error. 2:256

The point being that anyone can find justification for almost anything in such ancient religious texts. I'm with Oscar Wilde on this one: "There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written or badly written. That is all."

In my view, people (and only people) wrote these texts, people read them and people interpret the texts according to their own predispositions. The Abrahamic texts were specifically written as a means to bind together tribes and peoples in a chaotic part of the world and in extremely dangerous times. The vast majority of Jews, Christians and Muslims have since moved on, and the texts themselves have been reintrepreted over and over again to suit.

 

[Relic]

Nowhere? Well, let's see:

Those who believe (in the Quran and the prophets sent before), Jews, Christians and Sabians; whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 2:62

Let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Deal justly: that is nearer to Godfearing. 5:8

Say: "We believe in God, and that which has been sent down to us, and sent down on Abraham and Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob, and the Tribes, and in that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and the Prophets, of their Lord; we make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we surrender" 3:84.

Good and evil deeds are not equal. Repel evil with what is better; you will see that he with whom you had enmity has become your dearest friend 41:34

There is no compulsion in religion. True guidance is distinct from error. 2:256

The point being that anyone can find justification for almost anything in such ancient religious texts. I'm with Oscar Wilde on this one: "There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written or badly written. That is all."

In my view, people (and only people) wrote these texts, people read them and people interpret them according to their own predispositions. The Abrahamic texts were specifically written as a means to bind together tribes and peoples in a chaotic part of the world and in extremely dangerous times. The vast majority of Jews, Christians and Muslims have since moved on, and the texts themselves have been reintrepreted over and over again to suit.

Spot on.

 

[sloasdaylight]

Nowhere? Well, let's see:

Those who believe (in the Quran and the prophets sent before), Jews, Christians and Sabians; whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 2:62

Let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Deal justly: that is nearer to Godfearing. 5:8

Say: "We believe in God, and that which has been sent down to us, and sent down on Abraham and Ishmael, Isaac and Jacob, and the Tribes, and in that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and the Prophets, of their Lord; we make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we surrender" 3:84.

Good and evil deeds are not equal. Repel evil with what is better; you will see that he with whom you had enmity has become your dearest friend 41:34

There is no compulsion in religion. True guidance is distinct from error. 2:256

The point being that anyone can find justification for almost anything in such ancient religious texts. I'm with Oscar Wilde on this one: "There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written or badly written. That is all."

In my view, people (and only people) wrote these texts, people read them and people interpret the texts according to their own predispositions. The Abrahamic texts were specifically written as a means to bind together tribes and peoples in a chaotic part of the world and in extremely dangerous times. The vast majority of Jews, Christians and Muslims have since moved on, and the texts themselves have been reintrepreted over and over again to suit.

That's why you don't strap bombs to yourself and blow other people up.

 

[pica]

I live in Detroit. This story was all over the news probably before it made national headlines. It's unfortunate this had to happen to this lady. Unfortunately these are the times we are living in, and people better get use to it because it's not going to change any, at least in my lifetime.

 

[PerlNinja]

The big difference is that you can find nowhere in the muslim texts suggesting forgiveness for non-muslims, love for their enemies or anything but contempt for non-muslims as opposed to love for all, regardless of race or religion.
The bible has warlike sections in the old testament while the islam texts spend most of their space to the denigration of non-muslims and exhortation of warfare.

I went through this thread just now and man, you are worse than the most extremist Muslims.

Oh, hey, surprise! I'm a Muslim. I converted to Islam 2 years ago. I'm a pretty bad one though, just like most of my neighbours. We're like those "Christmas Only" christians. The only time I set foot in the mosque is when there's something special going on. Just to get that out of the way.

And even a "bad" Muslim like me could go and quote you some more verses that would prove your statement wrong. Since someone else already did, I won't bother.

I'll leave you with one idea though, did you know that the word "Islam" means "Peace"? Islam is a peaceful religion, or rather, as peaceful as Christianity is (crusades, anyone?).

It's funny though because I get more grief from foreigners who find out I converted to Islam than I get from my Islam neighbours after they noticed I smoke and drink, and used to be an agnostic.

Christians: oh my god you are a bad person you should believe in God and Jesus and omg ***
my Muslim neighbours: "Terserah, cuek aje" - which translates to "up to you, I don't care"

 

[Akami]

In my view, people (and only people) wrote these texts, people read them and people interpret the texts according to their own predispositions.

Then there you have it - you're predisposed to come away with what you want to find in there.
Any section of the koran that seems at odds with any other is solved by going with the newest text, and chronologically, it starts out peacefully and ends with the most violent script.
Research that before posting anymore earlier text.

I went through this thread just now and man, you are worse than the most extremist Muslims.

I'll leave you with one idea though, did you know that the word "Islam" means "Peace"?

Well I guess that settles it - some guy on the internet has told you all that you have more to fear from me than you do from any muslim, so therefore, they are harmless and intend no harm to anyone.

I've never killed anyone, and I'm not sure you can claim the same, but at least there is plenty of evidence to back me up, but none for your claim that I'm the worst of the worst.

After all, it's a religion of peace and there is much talk of the peace that will reign once islam has rule over the whole of the planet. Maybe some of you guys want to do some research on some of this rather than accepting the pablum you're being fed.

 

[Phil Smith]

That's why you don't strap bombs to yourself and blow other people up.

Or use drones, cruise missles, bombers, etc. to blow other people up.

 

[Tegzsa]

Then there you have it - you're predisposed to come away with what you want to find in there.
Any section of the koran that seems at odds with any other is solved by going with the newest text, and chronologically, it starts out peacefully and ends with the most violent script.

Not exactly. I'm predisposed to oppose fallacies when they are paraded in front of me (it's a failing, I know). As a quite confirmed atheist, I don't really "want" to find anything in any religious text. I'm more interested in the human subtext, if you see what I mean. What people of (any particular) faith are predisposed to find is entirely a matter for them, and very much depends on their own character. This is not the preserve of any one faith above the others.

Ignoring the fact that many believers don't see sections of the Koran being at any odds with each other (even the sections that do are very few and far between), and pick their favourite ones accordingly, here are some from the very last pages (I have more, but I suspect you're not really interested, and you did say "nowhere in the muslim texts" not "nowhere in the specific bits I want you to look at"):

Surely man is in a state of loss. Except those who believe (in God) and do good works, and exhort one another to truth, and exhort one another to steadfastness. 103:2-3.

Say: "I do not worship what you worship. Nor do you worship what I worship. I shall never worship what you worship. Nor will you ever worship what I worship. To you belongs your religion, and to me, mine." 109:1-6.

Most of the bits in this end part are, in fact, to do with reward for spiritual observance, resisting temptation and protection from evil.

Research that before posting anymore earlier text.

Or what, exactly? Will I win a prize?

After all, it's a religion of peace and there is much talk of the peace that will reign once islam has rule over the whole of the planet. Maybe some of you guys want to do some research on some of this rather than accepting the pablum you're being fed.

Now you're just being silly (or possibly trolling). Either way, you really should get out more. If you want to persist with this, may I suggest that you start a "Comparative Theology/Philosophy" thread, as we seem to be about as far off topic with this one as it is possible to get.

 

[sloasdaylight]

Or use drones, cruise missles, bombers, etc. to blow other people up.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

 

[CDweller]

Or use drones, cruise missles, bombers, etc. to blow other people up.

Economic sanctions, too. (app. 500,000 men, women and children perished in Iraq due to economic sanctions which included food and medicine...).

It's ok to kill children with bombs and sanctions. No, really, it's ok to kill children if we are told by "authority" that it's ok, it happens.



I don't give any government or religious document permission to dictate morality to me, particularly when they tell me it's ok to kill children. Religion gets subverted by people with agendas. Has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with exerting force.

 

[Akami]

As a quite confirmed atheist, I don't really "want" to find anything in any religious text. I'm more interested in the human subtext, if you see what I mean.

Ignoring the fact that many believers don't see sections of the Koran being at any odds with each other (even the sections that do are very few and far between), and pick their favourite ones accordingly, here are some from the very last pages (I have more, but I suspect you're not really interested, and you did say "nowhere in the muslim texts" not "nowhere in the specific bits I want you to look at"):

Now you're just being silly (or possibly trolling).

Not trolling but rather just presenting some facts that you're not aware of, understandably so.

I'll be more careful not to make any more overly broad references but the fact that you can find peaceful statements in the koran are negated by later corresponding sections.
Quoting your favorite sections to support your argument, you ignore that the koran is not laid out in chronological form, nor is it numbered in chronological order - it is compiled based on the size of the text, leaving the smallest ones at the end of the book and biggest ones first. In 6.34 it states that none can change the koran, yet later on 2.106 that whenever there is a contradiction, it is because the newer text is something better.
The allowance for the existence of other belief systems often shown to be illustrated in 2.236 is replaced by several sections in chapter 9, where it is ordered that non-believers be killed at all opportunities.

Your interest in focusing on what you see in your daily life to have a full understanding of things as they are and will be brings to mind the summer insect who doubts that such a thing as winter can exist, or maybe even closer, that a frog in a well cannot comprehend how broad the sky is.

We're in a disagreement, and I'm doing my best to not make any direct insults aimed at you and wish you could do the same. Focus on the subject and leave the personal attacks out of it.