All of that sounds more like a company that doesn't understand basic HR principles or how the harassment statutes work. Pendulum swinging too far at a company level.
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Workplace harassment laws: Gone too far??
- Thread starter Root 5
- Start date
All of that sounds more like a company that doesn't understand basic HR principles or how the harassment statutes work. Pendulum swinging too far at a company level.
It would have been a problem if she was the shrinking violet, shy, quiet type. The fact is, most of the office socialized outside of work, so nothing was taken personally and with legs like hers.....seriously.
Another time, we went duck pin bowling and one of the engineers, a woman, stood behind the same friend while he was at the scoring table. She said "Buy me a drink" as she rubbed herself (if you know what I mean) across his back. He turned and said "You're t*ts aren't that nice". She just laughed.
I would have fired him on the spot.
If he can not remember what was discussed in the meeting and act accordingly what's to say he will when it comes to something really important? How could I trust him not to say something stupid to a client or business associate?
Tat2dHeart
Only two strings away from an attitude problem.
Just for another perspective on this and from a woman's eye view.....
I see situations where people are now apprehensive about interacting with people of the opposite sex in a work environment because they just don't know how other people will react and they want to avoid trouble. That's all well and good, but getting the job done in most workplaces means you have to build some kind of work relationship with your coworkers regardless of their gender. IME, being able to be personable in this process helps, and that means you have to get to know people in a little bit more personal way. Understand that "more personal" doesn't mean "intrusive," but it does mean to treat your coworkers like real people and not machines.
I've gone to a lot of work over the past few months to lose weight, and I hadn't seen a coworker from another office during that time. The surprise on his face was evident that I'd changed, but it took him three days and a happy hour to finally say, "I'd really like to pay you a compliment, but I'm unsure if it will offend you, so I don't know what to do." I don't think the workplace should be that scary.
IMHO - as long as the fun and joking doesn't result in anyone taking credit for anyone else's work, someone using a position of authority to exert undue influence for personal gain, pushing for things that make the workplace uncomfortable or hostile for any party, or anything non-consensual, illegal or immoral, then we're all grownups and we just need to behave in a manner that is appropriate for our age and surroundings. That said, these kinds of laws wouldn't exist if everyone out there was capable of following those guidelines. Carry on.
I see situations where people are now apprehensive about interacting with people of the opposite sex in a work environment because they just don't know how other people will react and they want to avoid trouble. That's all well and good, but getting the job done in most workplaces means you have to build some kind of work relationship with your coworkers regardless of their gender. IME, being able to be personable in this process helps, and that means you have to get to know people in a little bit more personal way. Understand that "more personal" doesn't mean "intrusive," but it does mean to treat your coworkers like real people and not machines.
I've gone to a lot of work over the past few months to lose weight, and I hadn't seen a coworker from another office during that time. The surprise on his face was evident that I'd changed, but it took him three days and a happy hour to finally say, "I'd really like to pay you a compliment, but I'm unsure if it will offend you, so I don't know what to do." I don't think the workplace should be that scary.
IMHO - as long as the fun and joking doesn't result in anyone taking credit for anyone else's work, someone using a position of authority to exert undue influence for personal gain, pushing for things that make the workplace uncomfortable or hostile for any party, or anything non-consensual, illegal or immoral, then we're all grownups and we just need to behave in a manner that is appropriate for our age and surroundings. That said, these kinds of laws wouldn't exist if everyone out there was capable of following those guidelines. Carry on.
No doubt the concern over what is or isn't harassment causes changes in the way people interact with each other. Your friend did a good thing in asking you if what he was about to say might be offensive. He made it clear FIRST that he had no intention of being offensive, so even if you would have normally thought what he eventually said was offensive, you didn't have to guess about his intentions.
I've learned to apply a fairly basic filter for interactions with women in my workplace. I consciously think "is this something I would say if I ran into her at the supermarket and we were both there with our kids?". Hasn't failed me yet. And has on more than one occasion kept me from saying things that in retrospect could have been taken the wrong way.
In Ohio you can, in loose terms, be fired for no reason, sexual harassment the least of them. If an employer wants you gone, they will use any excuse. If a coworker doesn't like you, they will report you for anything, and then if the boss wants you out of there they'll fire you. I was fired for- get this- a bad attitude. Those were the words on my termination notice. Never mind that I was going through a divorce when I had found out my wife had cheated on me with 5 different men, had to take FMLA for 3 months, which was the real reason why i was fired. According to my boss I was "disrupting the schedule for everyone". I reported her to HR for harassment and immediately after that they started writing me up for every little thing. 3 months later I was out on my ass, and they fired my gf, who also worked there, 20 minutes after me on something totally unrelated, but also trumped up.
I hate Ohio. I've never been fired from a job before or since.
I hate Ohio. I've never been fired from a job before or since.
As a european i find it strange that you cannot tell a co worker she looks good after loosing some weight without getting in trouble!
It's not sexual harassment, it's just being nice.
It's the equivalent of telling a same sex coworker "nice suite!"
In some circles, saying "you've lost weight" is interpreted as "you're not as fat as you used to be". I have personally been irritated (not offended) by people saying "you look like you've lost some weight" when I am well aware that I'd recently put on 12 pounds (true story). At that point it just represented a stupid and unnecessary comment with no basis in fact.
I think very few people would be offended by a person of the opposite gender saying "nice suit". Some would be slightly uneasy with "that color looks good on you. Brings out your eyes" (I over heard that one). I think HR would be called with "that skirt really shows off your legs (overheard that one too).
All of those statements might be statements of fact, but one was borderline and the other was just plain out of bounds.
We had a harassment pow-wow at my employer. Harassment can be "Anything!"
Also, I was at a nearby hospital recently and saw the harassment policy on a cork board: It said "harassment is determined to have occurred based on the effect it has on the accuser!"
Anyone with common sense can immediately see big problems with a policy like that.
Companies have gone nutty over this because they're terrified of being held liable - of being sued. If someone claims the company didn't protect them - didn't believe them or take their accusation seriously = big $$$. Companies won't risk taking a chance.
Also, I was at a nearby hospital recently and saw the harassment policy on a cork board: It said "harassment is determined to have occurred based on the effect it has on the accuser!"
Anyone with common sense can immediately see big problems with a policy like that.
Companies have gone nutty over this because they're terrified of being held liable - of being sued. If someone claims the company didn't protect them - didn't believe them or take their accusation seriously = big $$$. Companies won't risk taking a chance.
A person could absolutely end up in HR over that one. It's all about how the person interprets the comment; your good intentions are irrelevant - it's all about the effect it has on the accuser!
It's really crazy today.
I know of a story where a man walked into a portable that had a wall divider. The man said, "What stinks in here?"
He didn't know a woman was on the other side of the divider and that it was her perfume he was smelling.
She was offended, made a complaint, and the man was fired!
No, they're not--so provide some links to real-life cases that back up your statements.
Illinois is not Ontario.
It was a very friendly workplace and the reason for the meeting was because of something that happened at one of their other offices. He ran that department efficiently but one main goal was for people do work together without going behind each others' backs if they had a problem with something that might have been said. She laughed about it. He's extremely professional and would never say or do anything to compromise a project. He was the leader of some of the largest, most successful and profitable projects in the company's history.
I knew both women and they weren't the type to take something like this sitting down if they were offended by what he said. In fact, the second one acted like she was the hottest thing on the planet, at times. I would argue that the second one lost any right to commenting on what he said at the bowling alley when she rubbed across his back.
That's similar to what Craig Ferguson said he has learned, after three marriages. He asks himself "Does this need to be said?", "Does this need to be said now?" and "Does this need to be said now, by me?".
I think a lot of people need to consult their inner voice a lot more than they do, especially online but face to face, they should at least think before speaking once in awhile. OTOH, a lot of people are awfully thin-skinned, these days. Far too eager to file a grievance or sue, rather than say something to the "offender" when something wasn't meant to be offensive. Obviously, some offenders should be slapped silly and get what they deserve.
The primary issue is that there are no objective tests when it comes to defining sexual harrassment. Harrassment is defined by the person making the allegation. Without getting into a giant discussion about positivism, social constructionism, and postmosternism, you can see the issue here: You end up with absurd sexual harrassment allegations like the "nice shoes" comment, which are then given merit.
I am all for stamping out sexual harrassment, but it's also going to be a dicey area as long as so much subjectivity exists with the definition of sexual harrassment.
I am all for stamping out sexual harrassment, but it's also going to be a dicey area as long as so much subjectivity exists with the definition of sexual harrassment.
You would have to show me proof of this one. If this was all there was to it, one tidy little lawsuit would fix this quick.
How so? If the man didn't have a contract or was covered under a CBA, then he would be an employee at will and could be fired.
And in stunningly, stupidly bad taste!!!! I can't imagine making a comment like that.
According to the giant laminated poster mandated by the U.S. government to be prominently displayed on the wall at my workplace, sexual harassment can be defined as any situation that may be perceived as sexually offensive.
It's not difficult to see the potential for abuse by frivolous lawsuits due to such inherent ambiguity and the evolution of ridiculous zero tolerence policies at the expense of common sense as a means to avoid liability.
It's not difficult to see the potential for abuse by frivolous lawsuits due to such inherent ambiguity and the evolution of ridiculous zero tolerence policies at the expense of common sense as a means to avoid liability.
Even more unlikely under a CBA. But let's take the at will employee as an example. The company that is employing him at will will quickly do a cost benefit assessment and try to determine if the time and expense of finding another contractor to replace him, then training that replacement on their policies and/or system outweighs the time (one or two conversations) in determining what really happened and what was said. That's a no-brainer. If he only did/said what Root 5 said he did / said, this would have resulted in the company telling the contractor "be more aware of your surroundings....carry on". If they fired him, there was more to it than Root5 is telling us, probably more than Root 5 has been told.
Now, with a Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) the tendency is to make it all but impossible to release an employee. It is in the union's best interests to keep as many employees on the rolls as possible (members = $dues) so at best the guy would have gotten some alone time at home.
If it was a 1099 contract employee, the resident company would have to bring the issue to the attention of the company that employs the person and they would have to deal with it, often by just assigning the person to another account.
If it happened the way Root 5 described, I doubt anybody got fired. If somebody got fired, there was a lot more to it than that.
Apples and grapefruits. It's one thing to not be offered a job because you lack the qualifications and then sue because the qualifications are discriminatory and another thing to be on the job and released because of questionable behavior. Both are within the realm of PC, but very different from each other. Much like my German Sheperd and my neighbor's Shih Tzu are both dogs, but the similarities end there.
As for the other stuff......offended? Not me. It does say a lot about you though (unless you are saying that tongue in cheek).
