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Worth adding a sub or join another band?

T

tubster

Feb 5, 2003
471
46
77
Southwest Spain
#1
Hi All

Have a small PA with 2x QSC active K8 speakers and an Alesis USB 8 mixer. Brought it from USA to Spain to get me going with starting a small band.

Started working with a guitarist playing blues and country. He uses a Roland Cube 30 and does not give a monkey about gear. He slings everything in a plastic bag and he is off to the next gig! Initially we used the PA for duo stuff and it worked fine - outdoor market, restaurants and coffee shop venues. All was fine but now he wants to put the guitar through the PA and we have added a drummer.

Last gig was outdoors and my bass - TH500 and CN112 was struggling to be heard. In addition, the drummer wanted to know where his mic and PA support are!!

So long story short, I am running out of mic channels and needing a way to keep vocals clear while adding a bit of bass, drums and guitar to the mix.

The initial reason for getting the K8s was size and easy transportation. Guitarist and I and all gear easily fits in Elantra at present. Space and weight are important for me.

Could I get away with adding a single small sub, EV ZXa1, Behringer b1200d, etc to this setup or do I need to change it or just join another band?!

Any help would be much appreciated.
 
#2
tubster said:
All was fine but now he wants to put the guitar through the PA and we have added a drummer....In addition, the drummer wanted to know where his mic and PA support are!!
Click to expand...

Have your gigs changed? Would the small PA still be enough for your current gigs if it were carrying only vocals? (Or have you moved from coffee house gigs to dance band venues? If you're running out of steam with a TH500/CN112, then the drummer's probably digging in some. Is that appropriate for your gigs?)

If you're still playing coffee house gigs, the drummer and guitarist don't *need* to be in the PA. If they *want* to be in the PA, let them dig into their own wallets to address that desire. And if you *need* a dance band PA, why does it fall entirely on you to buy and haul it?
 
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#3
Great for the more intimate venues but woefully inadequate for larger outdoor gigs. Couple of observations / questions:

*Does the guitarist really need PA support?

*You could really use a second enclosure. A single 12" will quickly fall off the radar.

*Yes, the kick should be mic'd even if you don't have the resources to support the entire drum kit.

Given the limitations, would you consider selling the system and starting over? Any way you could borrow or rent a powered sub(s) for a trial?

Riis
 
#4
1. Drummer might supply his mics, stands and cables.
2. Even though they don't get much cred, the K sub is small and works very well in theK series family. Simply set the switch on the K8's to ext sub. It is a very musical sounding setup. No it doesn't do what the KW-181 will but how often does a blues oriented band need DJ level low end...

Plenty of bands mic the kick and use put vocals, keys, guitars and vocals in old Mackie sm450's and those go to like 65 on a good day... The k-Sub rolls off at 48 and a lot of sound guys go brick wall off in the 40 to 45 range anyway...

3. Yeah, time to add a more capable mixer. There's ton's of decent and cheap, used analog stuff out there though I think it's mostly a waste of dough. A low end digital mixer will amaze you and your audiences... Mackie DL-806 and an iPad 2 or 1608 and an iPad 4... And a router.

As far as the other band thing... For me it's about the personalities. If you have people who gel, get the concept, get along, maybe even like each other - that is worth investing time, energy and maybe some PA into. If not, invest that time and energy wisely. Not too say don't d it, just keep your eyes open and ears to the ground...
 
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#5
tubster said:
Could I get away with adding a single small sub, EV ZXa1, Behringer b1200d, etc to this setup or do I need to change it
Click to expand...

In my experience with small subs, they don't add much in the way of volume if that's what you are expecting. They certainly won't help with anything above 100hZ or so...meaning everything except the fundamental of the kick drum (assuming it's tuned low enough). What makes the kick audible is the attack of the beater on the head and that's in the midrange. The lowest note on the guitar is about 80hZ and that's just the fundamental, the overtones (which is what's important to hear) start at 160hZ.

You need bigger/higher wattage speakers if you need to mike the guitar amp and the drums. Then if that means more mikes than the mixer can handle you need a mixer with more channels. Welcome to the wonderful world of small PAs :banghead: Eventually a small system is too small.
 
#7
OP here. Thanks for all the thoughts.

1. Guitarist in the mix - he eats from his gigs, yup its really that bad. It was a huge ask getting him to agree to buy a mic stand. Getting him to bring it, that's something else! Next is mic. Small steps.....
2. The small PA is going to stay SMALL - at this stage of life, K8/K10s are enough weight to schlep
3. Have another CN 112 1x12" coming so that's me sorted
4. Will borrow or rent a SUB just to give things a try - great idea.
5. Nice guy/guys in band but around here everyone plays with everyone. Behringer is the PA standard with a 15PA cab on floor and another on a stand. Whole band goes through it. Not the best perhaps but gets the job done. Gigs pay badly but are fairly laid back with a nice vibe so playing at the beach bar as the sun sets is not too bad. Sure beats 4X 50 min sets in a club with beer soaked carpet as has been my lot in former years.

Thanks again. Def give the sub a shot and see what happens but think I will hold off on buying one.
 
#9
The second 1x12 should help a lot. August is when we have the most outdoor gigs. I use less volume at outdoor gigs then I do at bar gigs. The drums are the same volume, the guitar doesn't carry as well at outdoor gigs so it quieter. The bass carries really well and can be turned down. I use a two 1x12 speakers.

As for micing the drummer... I agree with carl h. If you are just using a 1x12 (soon to be 2x12) and the guitarist is not loud, you do not need to mic the drums. If he really wants the drums miced... he can provide the PA to do it :D
 
#13
EastCoastThump said:
Have your gigs changed? Would the small PA still be enough for your current gigs if it were carrying only vocals? (Or have you moved from coffee house gigs to dance band venues? If you're running out of steam with a TH500/CN112, then the drummer's probably digging in some. Is that appropriate for your gigs?)

If you're still playing coffee house gigs, the drummer and guitarist don't *need* to be in the PA. If they *want* to be in the PA, let them dig into their own wallets to address that desire. And if you *need* a dance band PA, why does it fall entirely on you to buy and haul it?
Click to expand...


This. All of this. Exactly this.
 
#14
Buying a PA that can do a good job of supporting more than vocals and maybe an acoustic instrument or two is an enormous investment. Very few bands, much less individuals, can scrape that. If your gigs are really starting to demand full PA support, the most realistic option is renting.
 
#15
How's your mixer EQ'd? There's a magic chart that I can't find that shows you the ranges of the common rock band instruments and common boosts/cuts that clear up a mix. The basic idea is, put each instrument and mic into its own frequency space. You can get more perceived volume when there's a "hole" for your bass to sit in.

If your guys insist on being in the PA, make them supply their own mics, cables, stands. Recommend they buy a little 2 or 4 channel mixer so said drummer can sub-mix himself and send you one XLR. Realistically, kick and snare is all that's needed anyway (2 mics). If the kit is reasonably compact, 1 hypercardiod mic placed at the center top rim of the kick, facing the drummer, will pick up just fine. Then play with the EQ; cut each instrument into it's frequency range. Individually, this may mean a midrangey guitar, scooped drum tone, a trebley vocal mic... but when the band plays together, each instrument fills out the lacking space of the others, and you get a clean full sound where everything is heard.

And thus, no need to buy new gear just yet.
 

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