Would any of these work for me?

[Zwitsal1989]

Hey I hope I'm in the right section and I am desperately looking for input.

I use a pedal board with a preamp (two notes revolt bass) into headphones.
Now I would love to get a frfr for occasional headphone free playing.
The ones that, to my unknowing brain look alright are the Harley Benton FRFR-112A Guitar DSP Monitor, Vonyx VSA12BT or the Devine Onyx 15A.
Seeing 2 of them are around the 250 euro price point and the third is slightly over but offers a 15 inch speaker.

I am but a humble bedroom dweller with no interest in playing outside of it.
I would get a Amp but tbh I would love to simply slap something like this on a stand at ear lvl and forget about it.
Im not expecting deep rumbles in fact I want to avoid annoying neighbour's, BTW I play 4 strings just in case this matters.

Does anyone here have experience with something like this, and would it be able to achieve my goal?

My thanks in advance.

 

[gtirard]

Hey I hope I'm in the right section and I am desperately looking for input.

I use a pedal board with a preamp (two notes revolt bass) into headphones.
Now I would love to get a frfr for occasional headphone free playing.
The ones that, to my unknowing brain look alright are the Harley Benton FRFR-112A Guitar DSP Monitor, Vonyx VSA12BT or the Devine Onyx 15A.
Seeing 2 of them are around the 250 euro price point and the third is slightly over but offers a 15 inch speaker.

I am but a humble bedroom dweller with no interest in playing outside of it.
I would get a Amp but tbh I would love to simply slap something like this on a stand at ear lvl and forget about it.
Im not expecting deep rumbles in fact I want to avoid annoying neighbour's, BTW I play 4 strings just in case this matters.

Does anyone here have experience with something like this, and would it be able to achieve my goal?

My thanks in advance.

I really think it's a wrong route.
The HB is a guitar speaker, it won't handle bass well.
The other 2 are PA systems, so they might take low frequencies better, but if it's only for your bass, a bass amp will be more optimised.
And you don't need close to that power if you play at home.
You don't need a FRFR system just because you are using a pedalboard with a preamp, you should get a good small bass amp instead.

 

[Zwitsal1989]

I really think it's a wrong route.
The HB is a guitar speaker, it won't handle bass well.
The other 2 are PA systems, so they might take low frequencies better, but if it's only for your bass, a bass amp will be more optimised.
And you don't need close to that power if you play at home.
You don't need a FRFR system just because you are using a pedalboard with a preamp, you should get a good small bass amp instead.

Thank you for the reply.
I knew it was more power than needed going in but figured I could turn it down.
Sad to hear it won't work well for basguitar but very happy I asked first and really appreciate the input.

I will be sticking to my headphones I geuss sadly.
I have tried smaller bass amps and I just never like the sound for the amount of room they take up.
With an exception for the Phil Jones bass double 4, but that thing was 550 euros, so very far beyond my budget and tbh just more than I'm willing to pay for how likely little use it would see.

Again thank you for answering and saving me money and likely tears

 

[gtirard]

Thank you for the reply.
I knew it was more power than needed going in but figured I could turn it down.
Sad to hear it won't work well for basguitar but very happy I asked first and really appreciate the input.

I will be sticking to my headphones I geuss sadly.
I have tried smaller bass amps and I just never like the sound for the amount of room they take up.
With an exception for the Phil Jones bass double 4, but that thing was 550 euros, so very far beyond my budget and tbh just more than I'm willing to pay for how likely little use it would see.

Again thank you for answering and saving me money and likely tears

Yes, if I were in your shoes I would save now in order to buy a Phil Jones Double 4 when I can, or buy a small used bass amp.

 

[mellobud]

Hey I hope I'm in the right section and I am desperately looking for input.

I use a pedal board with a preamp (two notes revolt bass) into headphones.
Now I would love to get a frfr for occasional headphone free playing.
The ones that, to my unknowing brain look alright are the Harley Benton FRFR-112A Guitar DSP Monitor, Vonyx VSA12BT or the Devine Onyx 15A.
Seeing 2 of them are around the 250 euro price point and the third is slightly over but offers a 15 inch speaker.

I am but a humble bedroom dweller with no interest in playing outside of it.
I would get a Amp but tbh I would love to simply slap something like this on a stand at ear lvl and forget about it.
Im not expecting deep rumbles in fact I want to avoid annoying neighbour's, BTW I play 4 strings just in case this matters.

Does anyone here have experience with something like this, and would it be able to achieve my goal?

My thanks in advance.

IMO, a powered PA speaker would work just fine for your stated needs. Super versatile option. I use a 12” JBL Eon with a pedalboard. I have a mini mixer as an option to plug in additional mics/bass/guitar in case my kids want to plunk with me. It makes a great living room Bluetooth speaker and works for events (used it at my kids birthday). It has a mobile app that opens up multiple settings including eq-ing. You can expand to a sub if you want rumble but you won’t need that at home.

If you find a decent spec’d 12” or 15” powered pa speaker, I think you’d be set for your needs.

Bear in mind, you’re posting in an amp/cab specific forum so a powered PA speaker setup might not be a popular option for some here.

 

[bherman]

What about the smaller PJB units, like the M-7?

 

[agedhorse]

IMO, a powered PA speaker would work just fine for your stated needs. Super versatile option. I use a 12” JBL Eon with a pedalboard. I have a mini mixer as an option to plug in additional mics/bass/guitar in case my kids want to plunk with me. It makes a great living room Bluetooth speaker and works for events (used it at my kids birthday). It has a mobile app that opens up multiple settings including eq-ing. You can expand to a sub if you want rumble but you won’t need that at home.

If you find a decent spec’d 12” or 15” powered pa speaker, I think you’d be set for your needs.

Bear in mind, you’re posting in an amp/cab specific forum so a powered PA speaker setup might not be a popular option for some here.

Your EON is 2 or 3 times the cost of what the OP is looking at in Europe…

 

[Wasnex]

You seem you prefer more of a FRFR type sound. Most likely the PA cabs you mention will work for bedroom practice. However, these are entry level cabs, and cabs in this segment often use somewhat misleading marketing that wildly exaggerates how much power they have and how loud they can play. The may not work well with bass for anything above bedroom practice volume. There may also be concerns with reliability, so poke around to see if they are having a lot of problems.

Ideally you should try before you buy. We all have different tastes, so what I like may be very different from what you like. If you can find a store that has floor models go do a demo so you can judge how they sound for yourself.

 

[klattman]

Bear in mind the difference between RMS power and peak power.
For some unknown reason PA and stereo systems tend to list the peak power. Bass and guitar amps tend to quote RMS. Difference of at least 2-4x or more depending on how they measure and at what frequencies. (See detailed post from Wasnex below)

Also small speakers can work at low volume, but watch out pushing them. I tried a headrush powered cab (listed as a 2000W amp) and its 8” speaker started to distort at 1/4 volume in bass and about the same as my Phil jones double 4 + practice amp (90W RMS).

Best to get something made for bass that can deliver and handle the power OR get a very much overkill powered PA with 3 to 4x the RMS power you need and at least a 12” speaker so you have sufficient headroom for bass.

You may not really need FRFR, rent or borrow some bass amps first and see how they do.

GR bass makes really lightweight cabinets and powered cabs as well. They are pricey though.

 

[Wasnex]

For some unknown reason PA and stereo systems tend to list the peak power.

The peak power rating should pretty much be ignored; in this context it's usually just BS. I checked the specs for the 15" Devine.

350W RMS and 1400W Peak. There is also an implied 700W Program.

Here is what these ratings mean.

1. 350W RMS: This is a long term average using RMS values. You may also see it as 350W Continuous.
2. 700W Program: This is a short term average using RMS values. The idea is the speaker can take short transients that are up to twice the RMS rating as long as the long term average does not exceed the RMS value.
3. 1400W Peak: This is an instantaneous reading that is 2x whatever RMS value you are referencing. For example 350W RMS = 700W Peak. Also 700W Program (RMS) = 1400W peak.
   1. There is conversion involved because peak power is based off a peak voltage measurement rather than an RMS voltage measurement. See explanation below.
4. Mechanical Power: With bass you also need to be concerned with how much the woofer bounces around for frequency below 100hz. If the woofer moves too much it will exceed excursion limits and incur damage. Below 100Hz the Mechanical power rating is often significantly less than the RMS power rating. So the 15" Devine may fart out well below 350W RMS.
   1. The Mechanical Power rating is related to both the driver's characteristics and the cab design. Put the same driver in a different cab design and it will impact frequency response, low frequency cutoff, and mechanical power handling.

EXPLANATION OF Peak VS RMS
In this context, Peak is 2X an RMS value. Peak power is measured in peak Volts. With speaker testing, Peak is usually Related to the Program power rating...but this can vary, I.E. some companies relate the Peak power to the RMS rating. (Yes it's confusing).

400Wp = 200W RMS

400Wp at 8 ohms requires sq rt(400x8) = 56.57Vp

200W RMS at 8 ohms requires sq rt(200x8) = 40V RMS

But it's the same waveform

The difference between 56.57Vp and 40V RMS is how the measurement is taken...but again it's the same waveform.

The RMS value of a waveform is the DC equivalent. 1Vp produces the same amount of heat at 0.707V DC or 0.707V RMS. 56.57Vp produces the same amount of heat at 40V RMS.

To covert RMS Volts to Peak Volts, multiply the value by sq rt of 2

• 40V RMS x sq rt(2) = 56.57Vp

To covert Peak Volts to RMS Volts, divide the value by sq rt of 2

• 56.57p/sq rt(2) = 40V RMS

 

[mellobud]

Your EON is 2 or 3 times the cost of what the OP is looking at in Europe…

A powered pa from Thomann at even half the cost would be sufficient (and be more versatile than a comparably priced new bass amp in that price range, imo. )

 

[bholder]

I am but a humble bedroom dweller with no interest in playing outside of it.

I hear ya. I sometimes play in the den or living room, but haven't gone beyond that in years. lolzz (sad)

 

[Zwitsal1989]

What about the smaller PJB units, like the M-7?

Thanks for responding, I don't know how to respond to multiple people at ones but I do appreciate all the info coming my way.

I did try a nano 7 but it would "fart out" if that's the correct term? Hense I mentioned the double 4 seeing it could manage at lower volumes.
But I forgot to clarify this being the reason I "drew a line" I geuss at the double 4.

I also tried some hybrid Vox 50w 8inch Amp Wich was alright but just didn't do all to well in some cases for example chords etc.

And from what I understand about the "rms" discussion going on it woulda still been enough but just wary of if it will work for basguitar when strapped to a preamp pedal.

I have tried amps but I tend to find the ones that can handle chords etc to "boomy" I geuss.

I have been known to occasional strap a pair of powered bookshelf speakers to the headphone out of my preamp and it's fine for me.
Just very inconvenient.

I think I'm just to used to headphones somehow resulting in me not appreciating actual amps.
To much presence I geuss?
I'm not even a fan of cab Sims on preamp.

Again I really appreciate all responses, and sorry for posting a frfr question in the amps and cabs section, I really wasn't sure where to take this.

 

[klattman]

The peak power rating should pretty much be ignored; in this context it's usually just BS. I checked the specs for the 15" Devine.

350W RMS and 1400W Peak. There is also an implied 700W Program.

Here is what these ratings mean.

1. 350W RMS: This is a long term average using RMS values. You may also see it as 350W Continuous.
2. 700W Program: This is a short term average using RMS values. The idea is the speaker can take short transients that are up to twice the RMS rating as long as the long term average does not exceed the RMS value.
3. 1400W Peak: This is an instantaneous reading that is 2x whatever RMS value you are referencing. For example 350W RMS = 700W Peak. Also 700W Program (RMS) = 1400W peak.
   1. There is conversion involved because peak power is based off a peak voltage measurement rather than an RMS voltage measurement. See explanation below.
4. Mechanical Power: With bass you also need to be concerned with how much the woofer bounces around for frequency below 100hz. If the woofer moves too much it will exceed excursion limits and incur damage. Below 100Hz the Mechanical power rating is often significantly less than the RMS power rating. So the 15" Devine may fart out well below 350W RMS.
   1. The Mechanical Power rating is related to both the driver's characteristics and the cab design. Put the same driver in a different cab design and it will impact frequency response, low frequency cutoff, and mechanical power handling.

EXPLANATION OF Peak VS RMS
In this context, Peak is 2X an RMS value. Peak power is measured in peak Volts. With speaker testing, Peak is usually Related to the Program power rating...but this can vary, I.E. some companies relate the Peak power to the RMS rating. (Yes it's confusing).

400Wp = 200W RMS

400Wp at 8 ohms requires sq rt(400x8) = 56.57Vp

200W RMS at 8 ohms requires sq rt(200x8) = 40V RMS

But it's the same waveform

The difference between 56.57Vp and 40V RMS is how the measurement is taken...but again it's the same waveform.

The RMS value of a waveform is the DC equivalent. 1Vp produces the same amount of heat at 0.707V DC or 0.707V RMS. 56.57Vp produces the same amount of heat at 40V RMS.

To covert RMS Volts to Peak Volts, multiply the value by sq rt of 2

• 40V RMS x sq rt(2) = 56.57Vp

To covert Peak Volts to RMS Volts, divide the value by sq rt of 2

• 56.57p/sq rt(2) = 40V RMS

I figured you’d be along with the details.

 

[Wasnex]

just wary of if it will work for basguitar when strapped to a preamp pedal.

This is definitely something to keep in mind. You need to know what type of signals the speaker accepts and what sort of jacks it uses. Inputs may be balanced or unbalanced. The jacks on this sort of speaker may include mini-plugs, RCA, 1/4", XLR

We generally group signals into three levels:

1. Mic Level is the weakest. Generally levels < -30dB
2. Instrument Level is in the middle. Generally levels between -30dB and -10dB
3. Line Level is the hottest. Generally level > -10dB

Preamps typically put out instrument level or line level. So you have to know how hot of a signal your preamp can produce.

Sensitivity is a term that tells you the minimum level required to push a device to full power. For example professional power amps typically work at line level and have specific sensitivity ratings.

Here are the sensitivity specs for QSC PL3

These ratings are stated in RMS volts. You can use this online calculator to convert V RMS to dBu.

dB dBu dBFS dBV to volts audio conversion digital - calculator volt to dBu and dBV dB mW SPL dB decibels 0 dBFS - convert dB volt normal decibels relatioship relation explanation analog audio absolute level true rms convertor converter decibel to dbfs converter calculation online attenuation loss gain ratio reference audio engineering sound recording dBFS dBVU 0 dB audio logarithm level converter peak to peak p-p impedance voltage pro consumer audio digital analog recording level - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin


For example if you had a PL325 set to the 32dB setting:

1.6V RMS converts to ~6.3dBu.

To drive a PL325 to full power, your preamp would need to have a max signal level of at least ~6.3dBu.

The specs you need are not always provided .

 

[agedhorse]

The peak power rating should pretty much be ignored; in this context it's usually just BS. I checked the specs for the 15" Devine.

350W RMS and 1400W Peak. There is also an implied 700W Program.

Here is what these ratings mean.

1. 350W RMS: This is a long term average using RMS values. You may also see it as 350W Continuous.
2. 700W Program: This is a short term average using RMS values. The idea is the speaker can take short transients that are up to twice the RMS rating as long as the long term average does not exceed the RMS value.

Program power has nothing to do with RMS (directly). It's (generally) defined as 2X the continuous RMS power rating and is an entirely fabricated metric.

 

[agedhorse]

A powered pa from Thomann at even half the cost would be sufficient (and be more versatile than a comparably priced new bass amp in that price range, imo. )

Maybe, maybe not. There is a lot of junk masquerading as powered PA.

 

[dune]

One of my favorite musician quotes of all time came from Keith Urban in a recent interview with Rick Beato. I'm too lazy to rewatch it to get it verbatim, so I'll paraphrase: "I don't chase tone, I chase inspiration."

I had myself convinced for a while that I really wanted that FRFR-ish transparency thing.
The first thing I tried toward that end was a Phil Jones BG-450. Extremely well-built piece of kit and I truly wanted to love it and join the ranks of the PJB faithful here, but alas, it only inspired me to begin the return process and keep looking.
Next, I tried using my HX Stomp through a QSC K12.2. It sounded pretty good, and I got several months out of it, but whether it was the modeling and cab sims, or the speaker itself it just didn't feel like I was playing through a bass amp.
I came away from these experiences wondering if transparency in a bass rig is really my thing and being pretty certain that 5" drivers in a bass rig are definitely not my thing. Ultimately, I ended up with a Mesa head and a couple of their Subway cabs which as far as I know are not FRFR but talk about inspiration! Not what you're budgeted for at this point I know, but...

I would suggest playing through as much as you can, even if it's stuff that's beyond your current budget and whether it's supposed to be FRFR or not.
One of the best pieces of advice I ever got from a client was "Start looking at houses even years before you're ready to buy. That way it will be much easier to be certain when you find the right one." Also, being blown away by something that's currently beyond my budget can really light a fire under me to find ways to increase it.

 

[Wasnex]

One of my favorite musician quotes of all time came from Keith Urban in a recent interview with Rick Beato. I'm too lazy to rewatch it to get it verbatim, so I'll paraphrase: "I don't chase tone, I chase inspiration."

I had myself convinced for a while that I really wanted that FRFR-ish transparency thing.
The first thing I tried toward that end was a Phil Jones BG-450. Extremely well-built piece of kit and I truly wanted to love it and join the ranks of the PJB faithful here, but alas, it only inspired me to begin the return process and keep looking.
Next, I tried using my HX Stomp through a QSC K12.2. It sounded pretty good, and I got several months out of it, but whether it was the modeling and cab sims, or the speaker itself it just didn't feel like I was playing through a bass amp.
I came away from these experiences wondering if transparency in a bass rig is really my thing and being pretty certain that 5" drivers in a bass rig are definitely not my thing. Ultimately, I ended up with a Mesa head and a couple of their Subway cabs which as far as I know are not FRFR but talk about inspiration! Not what you're budgeted for at this point I know, but...

I would suggest playing through as much as you can, even if it's stuff that's beyond your current budget.
One of the best pieces of advice I ever got from a client was "Start looking at houses even years before you're ready to buy. That way it will be much easier to be certain about what you want and don't want." Also, being blown away by something that's currently beyond my budget can really light a fire under me to find ways to increase it.

This discovery of yours is perfectly wonderful IMHO. The problem comes when people realize what they like and conclude that everyone will either agree with their choice or be labeled as an idiot or some other derogatory term. The reality is some people prefer FRFR and some do not, and we should all be okay with it. Vive la difference!

 

[dune]

This discovery of yours is perfectly wonderful IMHO. The problem comes when people realize what they like and conclude that everyone will either agree with their choice or be labeled as an idiot or some other derogatory term. The reality is some people prefer FRFR and some do not, and we should all be okay with it. Vive la difference!

Right on. I've only tried those couple FRFR-like things anyway. I'm not even sure the Jones stuff is truly FRFR, but I'm always going to trust the DB folks when they say they're transparent, since they have a way to make that direct comparison. I've read where some bassists use a chunk of mains PA as their backline (seems like I remember reading that Sting was doing that at some point), which probably qualifies as FRFR, and I'm betting I'd dig that kinda rig.