Would you/do you submit to drug tests at work?

[two fingers]

Yet it was Greenboy that actually made the cabinets. Right?

And BTW there were hundreds of millions that had the same support form society, maybe more, that aren't contributing anything. It seems that with hundreds of millions of people getting at the least the same level of societal support that Greenboy and oh, Bill Gates got shouldn't they be held to the same level of responsibility as these men?

Shouldn't they be expected to pay back the same as Bill Gates?

Ain't it the truth? It would blow your mind to know what I pay in taxes, and by no means am I rich. So where's the "skin in the game" for the nearly half of us who receive only? I guess somehow we forced them into poverty by being "rich fat cat CEOs only out for ourselves".

 

[UncleFluffy]

Yet you see very, very few people doing so, because as much as they dislike the way some of their taxes are spent, there isn't much of a better deal out there to be had.

"Yet you see very, very few people turning down the job offer, because as much as they dislike the way they have to take a drug test, there isn't much of a better deal out there to be had"

 

[Lonesomedave]

Wow, you guys are still going at it ey? Impressive. Hey, unrepresented, you ever wonder why there are trillions of dollars "sitting on the sidelines" or in "offshore bank accounts"? I have some of both. It's because of the government taxing me to death on profits so they can "provide for me" things I don't want or need. I need roads, a national defense, and (some) regulations on doing business across state lines (which was the intent of the federal government to begin with). Everything else should be a state thing, or something you provide for yourself. I've been poor. I grew up poor. But nobody ever "gave" me a chance. I either earned a chance or created one where there wasn't one.

I get so tired of the hopelessness of younger people these days. "We can't do anything because the rich are robbing us of money, opportunity, and the very will to live" (exaggerated of course) Weakness. That's all it is. By the time my kids get to be grownups, I wonder what ANYONE will be able to do for themselves.

Oy, what a mess. Maybe you guys are hopeless. You want a ton of "rights" but your basic needs (healthcare, retirement, higher education) provided by someone else. Haven't you learned anything? Nothing comes without strings. They aren't going to give you everything you want, and not take away your dignity and/or rights in the process. (Of course, if you are willing to take from someone else, you didn't have any dignity to begin with.) You think I AM the one taking away rights. Ha!

I worry about some of you guys. I could sell you a struck match.

ok...ok...i know i said goodbye before...BUT

i have been following this thread off and on and i feel i must interject here....

+ 1,000,000 to this...well said

you and me, whatever our differences on pot use and how (or even IF) we need to conduct saliva, urine, blood testing for same, are so entirely simpatico on THIS that i feel i found my long lost twin

good show, old bean... right on brother...How, kemo sahbe!

although i have tried, i couldn't have said it better.

 

[BawanaRik]

It's my understanding that there are approximately 6 million American living abroad. I do not know how many ex Americans who have given up their US citizenship are living abroad.

That's not very few.

And as far as being educated in "educated in purely public schools" that's a topic that would stretch the bounds of TB. I believe the rub would be with the word educated.

I'm too old to get a job or become entitled to the support that another nation has. If the many many bucks bleed from me we available to buy into a EU National Health plan I would be So long.

There are better deal. Just not if you're 60.

Yet you see very, very few people doing so, because as much as they dislike the way some of their taxes are spent, there isn't much of a better deal out there to be had.

You're right. I can't assume that everyone was educated in purely public school, but I can assume that the majority of their employees will have spent some time there receiving basic and advanced skills they'll need. I'm not saying our public schools are perfect, but can you imagine the society we'd be living in without compulsory, free education?

 

[GregC]

So where's the "skin in the game" for the nearly half of us who receive only? I guess somehow we forced them into poverty by being "rich fat cat CEOs only out for ourselves".

Really, people are still trotting out the "nearly half"/47% line when it's been clearly demonstrated over and over again how fraudulent and silly it is? There is no shame on the Internet.

 

[BioDriver]

My company does random drug screenings and if you refuse to get screened it's considered an admission of guilt and you're fired on the spot. When I was a pharmacy tech you were required to get drug tested more frequently and not getting one was also an admission of guilt that came with a criminal charge. So yes, I would get screened immediately.

 

[1958Bassman]

Yet you see very, very few people doing so, because as much as they dislike the way some of their taxes are spent, there isn't much of a better deal out there to be had.

You're right. I can't assume that everyone was educated in purely public school, but I can assume that the majority of their employees will have spent some time there receiving basic and advanced skills they'll need. I'm not saying our public schools are perfect, but can you imagine the society we'd be living in without compulsory, free education?

What about people who went to parochial schools through high school and then to a Jesuit college? That's possible, and happens a lot in places like Milwaukee. I have a couple of cousins who never went to public schools and they weren't wealthy. BTW- the Milwaukee Public School system has 47% dropout rate and some of the worst test scores in the country. That's part of the reason so many people are sending their kids to charter or voucher schools. There's no faith that the little dears will get the education they should and with a public school system budget of about $1.2Billion (in 2011, it was $1.18B), we, as tax payers, are getting hosed, big time. The whole Milwaukee city budget in 2011 was $1.4Billion and they just keep throwing money at the schools, apparently hoping that the results will change.

 

[two fingers]

you and me, whatever our differences on pot use and how (or even IF) we need to conduct saliva, urine, blood testing for same, are so entirely simpatico on THIS that i feel i found my long lost twin

In the interest of privacy, I won't go too far down this road, but we share more than you think.

 

[two fingers]

Really, people are still trotting out the "nearly half"/47% line when it's been clearly demonstrated over and over again how fraudulent and silly it is? There is no shame on the Internet.

I don't take talking points. I don't know what percentage is really accurate. However, it's getting closer and closer to half every day. That is, if you include everyone who is getting some sort of assistance (financial, healthcare, food, shelter, etc.) from a government agency. For the sake of conversation let's just say it's 29% and be done with it. Fair enough? My point is obviously invalid because I was off on the numbers, right?

And according to some estimates, (namely the non-partisan Tax Policy Center) in the years 2009-2011, the percentages of people who payed any Federal income taxes were 51%, 53%, and 54% respectively. Seems like pretty much half aren't paying any. N'est-ce pas?

Gimme' a break.

 

[BawanaRik]

A simple option like school vouchers would save millions of children from a life of ignorance. And save this nation from third world status.

I am so disappointing that the system works so hard to throw children under the bus to provide protection for "Adults".

What about people who went to parochial schools through high school and then to a Jesuit college? That's possible, and happens a lot in places like Milwaukee. I have a couple of cousins who never went to public schools and they weren't wealthy. BTW- the Milwaukee Public School system has 47% dropout rate and some of the worst test scores in the country. That's part of the reason so many people are sending their kids to charter or voucher schools. There's no faith that the little dears will get the education they should and with a public school system budget of about $1.2Billion (in 2011, it was $1.18B), we, as tax payers, are getting hosed, big time. The whole Milwaukee city budget in 2011 was $1.4Billion and they just keep throwing money at the schools, apparently hoping that the results will change.

 

[Ziltoid]

"Yet you see very, very few people turning down the job offer, because as much as they dislike the way they have to take a drug test, there isn't much of a better deal out there to be had"

Zing'

 

[BawanaRik]

Skin the game. From what I understand European welfare recips are taxed on their largess. It's my understanding that one of the results of this is that they take better care of their homes since they have skin in the game.

Here's a little ditty comparing US welfare to others. It seems the US is more generous than Europe when it comes to welfare. And while US welfare tends to be long term starting with a case of teen age preggo the European variety is more for Older folks who might actually be unable to work.

http://www.smartmoney.com/invest/markets/us-welfare-more-generous-than-europe-1299270836831/

A young gal would be given the option of working in, oh let's say a comfort orientated career. And a welfare recip is even required to chip in for healthcare. And they get the same National Health an old guy would get. Unlike here where they get the solid Platinum when I, who is paying for theirs as well as mine gets the bargain basement healthcare.

Clearly I remember hearing a quote about paying taxes being American. Therefore those that don't are Un-American.

Skin in the game. It matters, it really does.

Ain't it the truth? It would blow your mind to know what I pay in taxes, and by no means am I rich. So where's the "skin in the game" for the nearly half of us who receive only? I guess somehow we forced them into poverty by being "rich fat cat CEOs only out for ourselves".

 

[GregC]

I don't take talking points. I don't know what percentage is really accurate. However, it's getting closer and closer to half every day. That is, if you include everyone who is getting some sort of assistance (financial, healthcare, food, shelter, etc.) from a government agency. For the sake of conversation let's just say it's 29% and be done with it. Fair enough? My point is obviously invalid because I was off on the numbers, right?

And according to some estimates, (namely the non-partisan Tax Policy Center) in the years 2009-2011, the percentages of people who payed any Federal income taxes were 51%, 53%, and 54% respectively. Seems like pretty much half aren't paying any. N'est-ce pas?

Gimme' a break.

No.

Even folks who don't currently pay federal income taxes typically pay a host of other taxes and fees into the system, so they are not only receiving.

That stat also includes retired seniors who paid into the system all their lives.

It also includes all servicemen and women.

It also includes the disabled and those who are too ill to work.

Your posts are very strident in pushing a certain point of view over and over. So no, no break given.

 

[two fingers]

No.

Even folks who don't currently pay federal income taxes typically pay a host of other taxes and fees into the system, so they are not only receiving.

That stat also includes retired seniors who paid into the system all their lives.

It also includes all servicemen and women.

It also includes the disabled and those who are too ill to work.

Your posts are very strident in pushing a certain point of view over and over. So no, no break given.

I was never quoting a "stat". I was never quoting a person. I just "blurted out" "nearly half" as a relative term. It's less than half, more that 25%. Are you satisfied yet? And let's say I amend my phrase to "no skin in the Federal game?" Happy now? The simple fact is, there are plenty of people living off of others in a country where opportunity still exists to take care of one's own needs. Hold me to stats. That will prove your point perfectly. (T'was sarcasm.)

As for a strident point of view being pushed over and over, I agree. Over and over again, business is vilified in this country. Profit is vilified in this country. Wealth? Yep. Success? Yep. The assumption is quite often made that for anyone to have become successful and/or wealthy he must have done so "on the backs of the poor and middle class". He simply MUST have gotten a break because of the family he was born into. He MUST have screwed everyone he met on the way up. Either way, it just isn't "fair" that some are successful and others aren't. And the poor are every bit as smart as me and work even harder than me, so I must have found an "edge" somehow. And that means I cheated.

You bet. I'm tired of hearing that "certain pint of view" being pushed over and over.

 

[Lonesomedave]

...Your posts are very strident in pushing a certain point of view over and over. So no, no break given.

please Greg...i'm afraid you're going to put him off his feed...can't you give him just a LITTLE break? i mean, those on the the other side were just the TEENIEST bit strident too, weren't they?

 

[GregC]

I was never quoting a "stat". I was never quoting a person. I just "blurted out" "nearly half" as a relative term. It's less than half, more that 25%. Are you satisfied yet? And let's say I amend my phrase to "no skin in the Federal game?" Happy now? The simple fact is, there are plenty of people living off of others in a country where opportunity still exists to take care of one's own needs. Hold me to stats. That will prove your point perfectly. (T'was sarcasm.)

As for a strident point of view being pushed over and over, I agree. Over and over again, business is vilified in this country. Profit is vilified in this country. Wealth? Yep. Success? Yep. The assumption is quite often made that for anyone to have become successful and/or wealthy he must have done so "on the backs of the poor and middle class". He simply MUST have gotten a break because of the family he was born into. He MUST have screwed everyone he met on the way up. Either way, it just isn't "fair" that some are successful and others aren't. And the poor are every bit as smart as me and work even harder than me, so I must have found an "edge" somehow. And that means I cheated.

You bet. I'm tired of hearing that "certain pint of view" being pushed over and over.

Oh, stop it. You're just throwing around numbers without any idea if they are based in fact. And guess what? Some of those other taxes are federall, too.

Since speculation is OK here, I've got one. I'd lay money down that the biggest reason the percentage of people that pay federal income taxes is dropping is simple demographics--the aging of America. I know that doesn't suit the narrative of those who insist US societal values are sending us all to hell in a handbasket, but oh well.

As for your complaints, sure, there are people who say and feel those kinds of things. There are just as many people on the other side who vilify the working poor and those who are temporarily on public assistance, who assume most or all people on welfare cheat, that there racism and sexism never, ever hold people back anymore, that anyone who joins a union is a socialist, etc. etc. Extremists will always exist, I'm afraid.

 

[UncleFluffy]

Robert Heinlein wrote a book, possibly 60 years ago. One of the central tenants was an Air Tax that everyone paid. If you don't pay the air tax you are not allowed access to the air. I was a child then and I was amazed at just how cruel, heartless and to be sure how fair this was.

(Side note for those following along: That's "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress", The Moon has no air so air had to be produced by people, just as food has to be produced by people here on Earth. Here, we pay farmers for food, on the moon, they paid air producers for air.

It wasn't denial of access as it would be here on Earth where air is freely available.)

 

[sandmangeck]

I've worked in health care for awhile now. A piss test is mandatory. I see it not as an invasion of privacy but protection from liability.

 

[two fingers]

We can absolutely agree on extremism on both sides. I am not that guy. I understand the need for temporary assistance for those in need. Cradle to grave? Not so much. It saddens me to see that so many just feel as though doing any better than they are today is a lost cause. Many aren't even trying to better themselves any more. (Of course, not all.) But the reason is NOT laziness. It's hopelessness. Either they just see no path to success, or think that even though there is a path, it would take too long and too much effort. In other words, they just throw in the towel. Sure, they work. Sure, they work hard. But they don't do the things that would dig them out of the situation they are currently in. And for many of them, it is because they have been CONVINCED that there is no hope, or that others are holding them down. Racism? Sexism? Try rewinding the clock a few decades. And then read the stories of those who overcame REAL racism and sexism. So, even if it exists today (and I'm sure there are cases) why is it HOLDING ANYONE BACK? Others found way around it in much more extreme circumstances.

Oh it's a waste of time to get into it. The short version is that people give in way too easily these days. Many are, in a word, weak. And they are only getting weaker.

 

[BawanaRik]

Many people make it without connections. The one friend I kept in touch with from college was the son of an Indian immigrant. his father started with less than you can imagine, basically his family saved and saved and pooled to buy him the ticket.

My friend worked his way through Rutgers. He got work in Silicon Valley developing medical devices. He worked hard, long hours. Too many 18 hour days.

When others were buying SUVs and Porches he was buying into companies. Usually when they were on the black board or close to it. He provided funding by driving a Toyota Tercel to work. These companies he funded provided jobs for many people and many products that saved and improved many lives. He had 47 patents.

As an aside most millionaires that worked for it do not drive fancy cars. They got wealthy by saving and investing along with hard work.

He had years where he was paying close to 10 million in taxes.

The thing that would often bug him was the lack of gratitude for providing this tax money. I don't and won't have this level of success. I don't/ didn't work hard enough. But I am able to appreciate what many people have done to make my life better.

I wonder why people who are getting so much more out of the system than I ever will fail to be able to appreciate what many have provided for them. Often at great personal cost.

I would like to have a day a year where those who ride the gravy train show appreciation for those that pay for it. I think this would bring the nation and maybe the world closer together.

It think it might eliminate some of the envy that poisons so many people' lives.

A suggestion. Tomorrow morning , if you're lucky enough to have a job I suggest you thank your boss for that job.

And thank God that the biggest issue in your life is weather or not you might have to pee into a cup. I could get you hundreds of millions of people who would be glad to pee into a cup for the chance to make what many of you take for granted. As Matt Damon has recently pointed out billions on this planet lack clean water or indoor plumbing.

If enough people spend their lives focused on trivia like having the choice to pee into a cup for a good paying job with good benefits rather than important big picture issues we might be joining the lacking a toilet crowd.

At this point may I suggest a silent pray of gratitude for the great man who invented in door plumbing. I am thankful for indoor plumbing.

Two Fingers. This is when the uwashed masses start ganging up on the washed types. Crank up the P Bass and don't get dragged into the life as trivia. Trust me, it can get ugly and ugly is, well ugly.

Have a great night. Today was blue skies and clear.

I was never quoting a "stat". I was never quoting a person. I just "blurted out" "nearly half" as a relative term. It's less than half, more that 25%. Are you satisfied yet? And let's say I amend my phrase to "no skin in the Federal game?" Happy now? The simple fact is, there are plenty of people living off of others in a country where opportunity still exists to take care of one's own needs. Hold me to stats. That will prove your point perfectly. (T'was sarcasm.)

As for a strident point of view being pushed over and over, I agree. Over and over again, business is vilified in this country. Profit is vilified in this country. Wealth? Yep. Success? Yep. The assumption is quite often made that for anyone to have become successful and/or wealthy he must have done so "on the backs of the poor and middle class". He simply MUST have gotten a break because of the family he was born into. He MUST have screwed everyone he met on the way up. Either way, it just isn't "fair" that some are successful and others aren't. And the poor are every bit as smart as me and work even harder than me, so I must have found an "edge" somehow. And that means I cheated.

You bet. I'm tired of hearing that "certain pint of view" being pushed over and over.