Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
When struggling thru Giant Steps, I often her the voice of Frank Costanza inside my head screaming "Serenity NOW!"
Thanks.
szalejot,
By all means use the bass to figure out lines. If you’re new at it, make it even simpler by writing out the turnarounds first ― you’ll be dealing with one or two measures instead of the whole 12/16/32. Below is a runt version of what Don Kasper’s on to for Giant Steps, above: five prefab lines, done with letters (more visible on stage). This way even if you're only feeling your way through the body of the song you’ll have the last two measures nailed ― precise tempo, no hunting, and with little germs of ideas for the soloist just before the next chorus. With that out of the way you can go back and work out stuff for the rest.
Backwards is forwards!
All the advice you'll ever really need.
By all means use the bass to figure out lines. If you’re new at it, make it even simpler by writing out the turnarounds first ― you’ll be dealing with one or two measures instead of the whole 12/16/32. Below is a runt version of what Don Kasper’s on to for Giant Steps, above: five prefab lines, done with letters (more visible on stage). This way even if you're only feeling your way through the body of the song you’ll have the last two measures nailed ― precise tempo, no hunting, and with little germs of ideas for the soloist just before the next chorus. With that out of the way you can go back and work out stuff for the rest.
Backwards is forwards!
Attachments
Last edited:
Edited for easier reading... smartphone shorthand is terrible.
I'm catching up on reading the threads that I have bookmarked so I'm way late to this but anyone might find this beneficial.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
True walking has never been a part of my playing but I've always wanted to know how to do it well and interestingly. I've stacks of transcriptions of play a longs. I've even tried to analyze them to figure out what is going on. So many accidentals, so confusing, even though I fundamentally understand them and use then in my playing. So many intervals- I can play 1 3 5 7 in inversions all day but only mechanically, they are not owned by my ear, especially at speed.
I recently got Ed Fuqua's Walking Bassics which is great and he emphasises learning to hear the intervals. However, I stumbled on the link above which breaks it down into even smaller pieces which is what I need at this point. We all learn differently and some of us need very small steps. For instance, Stinnett highly recommends that you add only one note/interval at a time to your practice and get that ingrained. Ex: R R R then approach next chord from one semi tone below.... R R R then approach one ST from below. After that is ingrained, do the same but approach from one ST above. You don't want to confuse the ear by mixing them yet, let alone adding other intervals if your ear isn't already that good. This is as far as I have come in about 10 days; the approach from below and working on approach from above. It's surprisingly fun as it takes a lot of pressure off, and it's easy to rehearse without bass in hand if you only have to concern yourself with two notes on any given chord. Like I said, I'm just beginning but it's great and I've tried a lot of other ways. Concentrating on one note at a time is working for me.... and you'd be surprised how challenging/fun it is to do when you use the example which has modulations rather than just I IV V. Don't yet worry about the modulations and how they work, just focus on what a half step approach sounds like.
I'd like to reiterate what all of the leading teachers say... there are no shortcuts. SLOW methodical learning is where it's at. I CAN play and I CAN explain why what I play or Jamerson plays works but until you can slow down and sing it or hear it, truly, accurately it in advance of playing it, you are just being robotic. No offense, it's where I am, too. It works fine enough but, from a practical perspective, songs take longer to learn when the pitches aren't in your mind but only in your fingers. Then if you don't play the songs for a while you forget them. If you truly hear the pitches, you never forget.
I'm catching up on reading the threads that I have bookmarked so I'm way late to this but anyone might find this beneficial.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
True walking has never been a part of my playing but I've always wanted to know how to do it well and interestingly. I've stacks of transcriptions of play a longs. I've even tried to analyze them to figure out what is going on. So many accidentals, so confusing, even though I fundamentally understand them and use then in my playing. So many intervals- I can play 1 3 5 7 in inversions all day but only mechanically, they are not owned by my ear, especially at speed.
I recently got Ed Fuqua's Walking Bassics which is great and he emphasises learning to hear the intervals. However, I stumbled on the link above which breaks it down into even smaller pieces which is what I need at this point. We all learn differently and some of us need very small steps. For instance, Stinnett highly recommends that you add only one note/interval at a time to your practice and get that ingrained. Ex: R R R then approach next chord from one semi tone below.... R R R then approach one ST from below. After that is ingrained, do the same but approach from one ST above. You don't want to confuse the ear by mixing them yet, let alone adding other intervals if your ear isn't already that good. This is as far as I have come in about 10 days; the approach from below and working on approach from above. It's surprisingly fun as it takes a lot of pressure off, and it's easy to rehearse without bass in hand if you only have to concern yourself with two notes on any given chord. Like I said, I'm just beginning but it's great and I've tried a lot of other ways. Concentrating on one note at a time is working for me.... and you'd be surprised how challenging/fun it is to do when you use the example which has modulations rather than just I IV V. Don't yet worry about the modulations and how they work, just focus on what a half step approach sounds like.
I'd like to reiterate what all of the leading teachers say... there are no shortcuts. SLOW methodical learning is where it's at. I CAN play and I CAN explain why what I play or Jamerson plays works but until you can slow down and sing it or hear it, truly, accurately it in advance of playing it, you are just being robotic. No offense, it's where I am, too. It works fine enough but, from a practical perspective, songs take longer to learn when the pitches aren't in your mind but only in your fingers. Then if you don't play the songs for a while you forget them. If you truly hear the pitches, you never forget.
Last edited:
Let me say this about that Ant. The give away is your mention that your ear can't reconcile these odd (accidentals) intervals. That is key. You'll get huge amounts of benefit by emersing yourself in the style listening. I grew up with jazz all around me so these thing are as familiar as do ra me.
Recently a long time non-jazz musician friend of mine has been listening to jazz including my bands recordings. He says to me 'these notes don't fit 'in that moment' (referring to passing tones & voice leading moments) 'but I'm starting to get it' he says.
I told him 'that's the idea. We're taking you on a journey. 'That moment isn't the point. It's the destination that matters - when it resolves its more satisfying'.
Recently a long time non-jazz musician friend of mine has been listening to jazz including my bands recordings. He says to me 'these notes don't fit 'in that moment' (referring to passing tones & voice leading moments) 'but I'm starting to get it' he says.
I told him 'that's the idea. We're taking you on a journey. 'That moment isn't the point. It's the destination that matters - when it resolves its more satisfying'.
I will repeat what I said here, earlier the thread. OK, I won't repeat it, but you can read it here:
Writing down walking bass line
If you start by not playing many notes, but playing correct notes and in rhythm, you will have a solid foundation on which to build. Don't start by trying to play a walking bass line, start by trying to play _a_ bass line that you created, however simple it may be.
-S-
Writing down walking bass line
If you start by not playing many notes, but playing correct notes and in rhythm, you will have a solid foundation on which to build. Don't start by trying to play a walking bass line, start by trying to play _a_ bass line that you created, however simple it may be.
-S-
I think this is best for advanced practice like Don's Giant Steps. For a beginner, if you learn basic walking lines you should be too busy to do such a thing. Just go play with people and slowly work in different ideas one four note phrase at a time.
I can attest to the worthiness of Stinnett's process. It’s slow, and takes a lot of time to really do as he says (i.e. transpose in all keys, play each 10 times before moving on, etc), but it works.
It really helped me break away from “auto-pilot” (in the sense of always playing the same patterns over different standard progressions) and also to hear how completely satisfying and appropriate 1, 3, 1 ½ step (for example) can be. There is a tendency for inexperienced or self-taught guys like me to imagine that great sounding lines must be complicated, but the opposite is often true.
It really helped me break away from “auto-pilot” (in the sense of always playing the same patterns over different standard progressions) and also to hear how completely satisfying and appropriate 1, 3, 1 ½ step (for example) can be. There is a tendency for inexperienced or self-taught guys like me to imagine that great sounding lines must be complicated, but the opposite is often true.
I don't have any advice, but I do have a story.
This is from the liner notes of an album by John Tchicai (sax), Charlie Kohlhase (sax), and Garrison Fewell (guitar). Fewell is the guitarist, but he plays a lot of bass lines in the trio.
Not the exact words, but he was struggling with coming up with a bass line for one of Tchicai's tunes. So he finally comes up with something he likes, and plays it in the rehearsal, and Tchicai says it's great. So he takes out a pencil to write it down so he won't forget it, and Tchicai says "What are you doing?" "Writing it down so I will remember it." "Well, that was a great bass line, but I want you to play something different tonight."
- Is there a lesson to be learned here? I dunno, I am just a recent beginner.
This is from the liner notes of an album by John Tchicai (sax), Charlie Kohlhase (sax), and Garrison Fewell (guitar). Fewell is the guitarist, but he plays a lot of bass lines in the trio.
Not the exact words, but he was struggling with coming up with a bass line for one of Tchicai's tunes. So he finally comes up with something he likes, and plays it in the rehearsal, and Tchicai says it's great. So he takes out a pencil to write it down so he won't forget it, and Tchicai says "What are you doing?" "Writing it down so I will remember it." "Well, that was a great bass line, but I want you to play something different tonight."
- Is there a lesson to be learned here? I dunno, I am just a recent beginner.
The lesson to be learned is that different communities have a different set of ethics. In one a song is not "known" unless you clone every note and technique used in the iconic recording and the other in this trio every performance demands improvisation and reaction to others choices at that moment in time
Well that's the idea in jazz. Improvise. Every take my band does varies. I wouldn't have it any other way. In fact we do these 2-3 day recording sessions and just record everything. When I review stuff it's ALWAYS the first or second take that's kept. Once I get to the third or fifth run through I'm digging for fresh stuff and it usually sucks.
