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WT800C Meltdown

So no discussion on possible causes is allowed. Dang it. I would have asked what's on the table for that module besides temporary PS fault, organic component failure, and user error. I wonder what happens when you run it with both modes active? Output power surge? Burnt components at the output? No. Just learn the amp Danielson. Your questions are just wild ass guesses. Just learn the amp.

That amp sure did cook. With such a failure it'll be difficult to determine the cause. Excessive current resulted in component and PCB failures. A forensic analysis performed by the manufacturer would be interesting. Also if there were any failure related board or component revisions since this product was manufactured. Having the tech check it out was good. Sometimes it's also good to contact customer service with the serial number when buying an amp and ask if there are any updates available.

It would help if you to noted how the output was set up to rule out user error. Good thing that it didn't take a speaker cab with it.
 
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This sequence of events is pathetic from a safety point of view, let alone that of a user experiencing a malfunction.

First, there was reason for the bassist to stop playing to check if the amp felt hot. Maybe that was tone or volume degradation, smell, or visible smoke.

Next, a brilliant idea to remove the top to observe internals of a failing amp occurred to "see" what was happening, while the amp was still being played. This activity had lethal potential that only fool's luck prevented.

Every experienced musician that I know "powers down" at the first sign of amp failure, in hope of minimizing damage and saving the amp.

That the amp in question was so dangerously abused is likely why minimal explanation is being offered to one of the perpetrators of the deserved "melt down" folly.
Many thought it. One had the Nads to say it. I commend your honesty.
 
Truth. And in commenting anybody is opening the floor to responses, such is part of the circle of life. Thanks for bringing some perspective to this thread regarding information sharing. It's a fair point. I can admit that maybe I shouldn't be quick to think someone is being intentionally dismissive by not addressing specific points that I ask about.
Glad you understand, and I'm sorry if I came down kinda hard on you.

I just happen to be more fortunate than you inasmuch as talkbass does not require me to reveal the number of incidents in which I've done something that seemed like a good idea at the time.
 
The schematic for this looks like ampretty much run of the mill class AB amp channel . . . no magic there, and pretty easy to work on. Looking at the pics, either I'm not seeing something on this tablet, but the board does notlook too bas to me either - I can really only see one fubar heavy trace, and suitably heavy wire on the surface of the trace will work fine - just keep it snug and where the missing part was, and EMI and such should not change enough to care.

I assume the power supply has been tested to be OK (and it's certainly beefy to have eaten this much and survived.

I will speculate on failure based on what I have encountered, but remember, it's not on my bench, so I'm jusf applying my experience with similar ampsmto what you have offered . . . .

In the "end game", what you have is that both sets of output transistors (3 to the positive rail and 3 to the negatice) have failed to a short circuit such that it ate emitter resistors (the .47 ohm devices), and ultimately blew a foil apart instead of a fuse, thus stopping current flow. The issue of why is harder, but there are a couple typical scenarios:

1) An single output device on one side failed to a short. (This would basically cause the output to be pure DC at that point) When the opposing side tried to conduct, it would basically short the supplu, producing a lot of heat on those devices, and failure in short order, resulting in what you see.

2) Kind of a variant of the above, and which seems to track better with the description of the failure. Due to a weak/defextive device, driving too low of an impedence load, or phase of the moon, an output device on one side (maybe more) failed to open. The amp would still work, but the surviving output devices on that side would be working far harder than they were intended too, and likely would have run very hot making at least that section of the heatsink seem much warmer than normal. Continued use this way caused one of those devices to fail to a short, dropping right into scenario #1 above.

What really can't be absolutely determined is why . . . but typical are bad load or obstructed cooling (I serviced amps for a couple of clubs, and it was interesting that the failures were always so similar that I could get most of the parts ordered before I saw it, and the observed cause was alway massive bar-funk buildup choking cooling air off. This looks really clean, so I tend to speculate this is a "driving too low of an impedance" type of failure (even if the cabs are labelled fine, a failing driver can drop in impedance as well . . . gotta check everything.

One other thing to consider (and you have been "there" to check it's condition) is that heatbsink compound frequently degrades with age (or the assembly tech skimped) and that could have caused an output device to overheat, triggering this failure.

While I typically don't find all output devices failed (typically, on the side that went first, since the current dump is through the failure, others survive without being stressed) but it sounds like you did, I'd replace all failed outputs, and have a good hard look at the driver transistors (TIP41 on one side - I don't recall if both sides are the same) since I often see these faults take those. Typically, most prior to that survives . . . . Check the emitter resistors closely, since they take a beating in thisntype of fault, and any thing else that looks baked - find it on the schematic, and see what it does (I can't tell what part the burned larger resistor is on your pic, but it would be typical for that to be the emitter resistor for the first device to short). With the power devices out, you should be able to meter/test the remajning resistkrs and diodes without issue.

Be sure to check every fuse in this thing and ensure that is the correct type and rating! I am somewhat amazed that a PCB trace failed before a fuse (and no, I have not taken time to review fusing on the schemo. . . )

With finals/drivers out, bring it up current limited and see if you have proper signal at the inputs to the drivers. If you do, start repopolating. If not, you need to work back upstream until you do. Once repopulated, again come up current limited and do a basic test, and leave it on for an hour of so. From here, it's kind of up to you, but I tended to run the bar amps into a minimum rated impedance dummy load using typical program material at just the edge of clip for at least 8 hours to stress test. (Actually used to use the first Madonna CD for this . . . ). If nothing else failed, it would go back, and I never had a repeat failure!

(Also clean along the way . . . I left that out here, but the bar amps started out with pulling the boards and a very deep wet clean with a soft brush and dry before starting, otherwise, everything go contaminated, and you wanted to gag being near it . . . Ultimately, cleanliness should be the same as if new on a repair as I see it . . .

And lastly, myself, I'd trust a proper repair far more than new. First, all other components have been run and tested over time (so no infant mortality in the front end). And I trust my work. (And frankly the misguided level of paranoia about using repaired gear here I find quite amusing. If I had a buck for every fictitious statement I have heard on the topic, I could retire! (That, or that are an awful lot of hacks in the biz making others experience differ)

(And my apologies if I am rambling, bad grammar, typos, etc. . . . I had a pretty major surgery last Friday, and while I'm off the "Good stuff" the muscle relaxants and such are still messing with me)
 
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The schematic for this looks like ampretty much run of the mill class AB amp channel . . . no magic there, and pretty easy to work on. Looking at the pics, either I'm not seeing something on this tablet, but the board does notlook too bas to me either - I can really only see one fubar heavy trace, and suitably heavy wire on the surface of the trace will work fine - just keep it snug and where the missing part was, and EMI and such should not change enough to care.

I assume the power supply has been tested to be OK (and it's certainly beefy to have eaten this much and survived.

I will speculate on failure based on what I have encountered, but remember, it's not on my bench, so I'm jusf applying my experience with similar ampsmto what you have offered . . . .

In the "end game", what you have is that both sets of output transistors (3 to the positive rail and 3 to the negatice) have failed to a short circuit such that it ate emitter resistors (the .47 ohm devices), and ultimately blew a foil apart instead of a fuse, thus stopping current flow. The issue of why is harder, but there are a couple typical scenarios:

1) An single output device on one side failed to a short. (This would basically cause the output to be pure DC at that point) When the opposing side tried to conduct, it would basically short the supplu, producing a lot of heat on those devices, and failure in short order, resulting in what you see.

2) Kind of a variant of the above, and which seems to track better with the description of the failure. Due to a weak/defextive device, driving too low of an impedence load, or phase of the moon, an output device on one side (maybe more) failed to open. The amp would still work, but the surviving output devices on that side would be working far harder than they were intended too, and likely would have run very hot making at least that section of the heatsink seem much warmer than normal. Continued use this way caused one of those devices to fail to a short, dropping right into scenario #1 above.

What really can't be absolutely determined is why . . . but typical are bad load or obstructed cooling (I serviced amps for a couple of clubs, and it was interesting that the failures were always so similar that I could get most of the parts ordered before I saw it, and the observed cause was alway massive bar-funk buildup choking cooling air off. This looks really clean, so I tend to speculate this is a "driving too low of an impedance" type of failure (even if the cabs are labelled fine, a failing driver can drop in impedance as well . . . gotta check everything.

One other thing to consider (and you have been "there" to check it's condition) is that heatbsink compound frequently degrades with age (or the assembly tech skimped) and that could have caused an output device to overheat, triggering this failure.

While I typically don't find all output devices failed (typically, on the side that went first, since the current dump is through the failure, others survive without being stressed) but it sounds like you did, I'd replace all failed outputs, and have a good hard look at the driver transistors (TIP41 on one side - I don't recall if both sides are the same) since I often see these faults take those. Typically, most prior to that survives . . . . Check the emitter resistors closely, since they take a beating in thisntype of fault, and any thing else that looks baked - find it on the schematic, and see what it does (I can't tell what part the burned larger resistor is on your pic, but it would be typical for that to be the emitter resistor for the first device to short). With the power devices out, you should be able to meter/test the remajning resistkrs and diodes without issue.

Be sure to check every fuse in this thing and ensure that is the correct type and rating! I am somewhat amazed that a PCB trace failed before a fuse (and no, I have not taken time to review fusing on the schemo. . . )

With finals/drivers out, bring it up current limited and see if you have proper signal at the inputs to the drivers. If you do, start repopolating. If not, you need to work back upstream until you do. Once repopulated, again come up current limited and do a basic test, and leave it on for an hour of so. From here, it's kind of up to you, but I tended to run the bar amps into a minimum rated impedance dummy load using typical program material at just the edge of clip for at least 8 hours to stress test. (Actually used to use the first Madonna CD for this . . . ). If nothing else failed, it would go back, and I never had a repeat failure!

(Also clean along the way . . . I left that out here, but the bar amps started out with pulling the boards and a very deep wet clean with a soft brush and dry before starting, otherwise, everything go contaminated, and you wanted to gag being near it . . . Ultimately, cleanliness should be the same as if new on a repair as I see it . . .

And lastly, myself, I'd trust a proper repair far more than new. First, all other components have been run and tested over time (so no infant mortality in the front end). And I trust my work. (And frankly the misguided level of paranoia about using repaired gear here I find quite amusing. If I had a buck for every fictitious statement I have heard on the topic, I could retire! (That, or that are an awful lot of hacks in the biz making others experience differ)

(And my apologies if I am rambling, bad grammar, typos, etc. . . . I had a pretty major surgery last Friday, and while I'm off the "Good stuff" the muscle relaxants and such are still messing with me)

Per Eden customer service, there is one authorized tech in the US: Abell Audio in Columbus, Ohio.

spanglish-cloris.gif


:)
 
The schematic for this looks like ampretty much run of the mill class AB amp channel . . . no magic there, and pretty easy to work on. Looking at the pics, either I'm not seeing something on this tablet, but the board does notlook too bas to me either - I can really only see one fubar heavy trace, and suitably heavy wire on the surface of the trace will work fine - just keep it snug and where the missing part was, and EMI and such should not change enough to care.

I assume the power supply has been tested to be OK (and it's certainly beefy to have eaten this much and survived.

I will speculate on failure based on what I have encountered, but remember, it's not on my bench, so I'm jusf applying my experience with similar ampsmto what you have offered . . . .

In the "end game", what you have is that both sets of output transistors (3 to the positive rail and 3 to the negatice) have failed to a short circuit such that it ate emitter resistors (the .47 ohm devices), and ultimately blew a foil apart instead of a fuse, thus stopping current flow. The issue of why is harder, but there are a couple typical scenarios:

1) An single output device on one side failed to a short. (This would basically cause the output to be pure DC at that point) When the opposing side tried to conduct, it would basically short the supplu, producing a lot of heat on those devices, and failure in short order, resulting in what you see.

2) Kind of a variant of the above, and which seems to track better with the description of the failure. Due to a weak/defextive device, driving too low of an impedence load, or phase of the moon, an output device on one side (maybe more) failed to open. The amp would still work, but the surviving output devices on that side would be working far harder than they were intended too, and likely would have run very hot making at least that section of the heatsink seem much warmer than normal. Continued use this way caused one of those devices to fail to a short, dropping right into scenario #1 above.

What really can't be absolutely determined is why . . . but typical are bad load or obstructed cooling (I serviced amps for a couple of clubs, and it was interesting that the failures were always so similar that I could get most of the parts ordered before I saw it, and the observed cause was alway massive bar-funk buildup choking cooling air off. This looks really clean, so I tend to speculate this is a "driving too low of an impedance" type of failure (even if the cabs are labelled fine, a failing driver can drop in impedance as well . . . gotta check everything.

One other thing to consider (and you have been "there" to check it's condition) is that heatbsink compound frequently degrades with age (or the assembly tech skimped) and that could have caused an output device to overheat, triggering this failure.

While I typically don't find all output devices failed (typically, on the side that went first, since the current dump is through the failure, others survive without being stressed) but it sounds like you did, I'd replace all failed outputs, and have a good hard look at the driver transistors (TIP41 on one side - I don't recall if both sides are the same) since I often see these faults take those. Typically, most prior to that survives . . . . Check the emitter resistors closely, since they take a beating in thisntype of fault, and any thing else that looks baked - find it on the schematic, and see what it does (I can't tell what part the burned larger resistor is on your pic, but it would be typical for that to be the emitter resistor for the first device to short). With the power devices out, you should be able to meter/test the remajning resistkrs and diodes without issue.

Be sure to check every fuse in this thing and ensure that is the correct type and rating! I am somewhat amazed that a PCB trace failed before a fuse (and no, I have not taken time to review fusing on the schemo. . . )

With finals/drivers out, bring it up current limited and see if you have proper signal at the inputs to the drivers. If you do, start repopolating. If not, you need to work back upstream until you do. Once repopulated, again come up current limited and do a basic test, and leave it on for an hour of so. From here, it's kind of up to you, but I tended to run the bar amps into a minimum rated impedance dummy load using typical program material at just the edge of clip for at least 8 hours to stress test. (Actually used to use the first Madonna CD for this . . . ). If nothing else failed, it would go back, and I never had a repeat failure!

(Also clean along the way . . . I left that out here, but the bar amps started out with pulling the boards and a very deep wet clean with a soft brush and dry before starting, otherwise, everything go contaminated, and you wanted to gag being near it . . . Ultimately, cleanliness should be the same as if new on a repair as I see it . . .

And lastly, myself, I'd trust a proper repair far more than new. First, all other components have been run and tested over time (so no infant mortality in the front end). And I trust my work. (And frankly the misguided level of paranoia about using repaired gear here I find quite amusing. If I had a buck for every fictitious statement I have heard on the topic, I could retire! (That, or that are an awful lot of hacks in the biz making others experience differ)

(And my apologies if I am rambling, bad grammar, typos, etc. . . . I had a pretty major surgery last Friday, and while I'm off the "Good stuff" the muscle relaxants and such are still messing with me)

If you look closely (it's not obvious until you see it) at the schematic, you will see some unique details that point to some inherent issues regarding cascading catastrophic failure. This is why I mentioned that unless you really understand how this type of amp works, it's really easy to make assumptions that are incorrect (like the OP and a couple of the "helpers" that early on dismissed my comments).

I am very familiar with this basic topology, I have designed amps around it for years (back in the day). In the balanced dual differential topology, the phase inversion is accomplished right in the differential stages (there are two not one), and there is a push-pull voltage amp rather than a current source and class A voltage amp.

If you look at the positive side voltage amp, you will see that there is a current limiting to the base of the driver, which along with the VAS emitter resistor are semi-protective. Why is this necessary? Because the driver is a fairly low current gain part, the outputs are also fairly low gain, so the driver must be driven hard to prevent current droop under 2 and 4 ohm loads. Now, for the even trickier part.... there's some built in driver sag because the driver's collector supply's current is resistor limited and supported by the capacitor (1000uF/10V) between the collector and the speaker output. Under normal conditions, there is just enough charge on the cap to hold up the supply voltage (this absolute voltage rises and falls with the signal but is referenced to speaker output). If the amp is short circuited, the current draw on the driver increases and it sucks the cap down and the voltage and available current falls.

Because there is no VI limiting on the amp, survival depends on this mechanism working 100% of the time but in fact it's rather crude and not foolproof. This is why it's not used in most designs, though QSC did something similar (not identical) on their Series 1 and USA models which was effective.

Now in the event of a failure, even though the driver is protected under normal operation, the voltage amp may be exposed to a short circuit if there is an output transistor bass to emitter or bass to collector short which takes out the driver. Ideally, the 39 ohm current limiting resistor will open (and make a mess) protecting the voltage amp, but in reality what can happen is that the resistor opens, the and saturates whatever is left of the output stage because the global NFB drivers the amp to the opposite rail.

This is why it's really important to understand how the amp works, which helps understand where to look and what specifically to look for.

In my designs, I use constant current sources for the voltage amp stages so that in the currents are inherently limited in the event of an abnormal load. I also use a triple Darlington output stage (with ~10x more current gain) so that I can more effectively keep the currents I need to worry about under failure to much lower values. I also use VI limiting in the output stage so that the currents are guaranteed to be limited to within the SOA of the output devices. All of these techniques are used in most pro audio designs in general because they result in much higher reliability and less catastrophic damage to PCBs and components. I have yet to see one of my amps using this topology suffer from a catastrophic failure, the damage is almost always limited to an output or two and rarely a driver.

The question to ask is if it's worth investing the time and materials is worth it for this amp, and if the OP has the expertise to repair this problem correctly. Looks like they sell for about $600 used (average) on eBay.
 
If you look closely (it's not obvious until you see it) at the schematic, you will see some unique details that point to some inherent issues regarding cascading catastrophic failure. This is why I mentioned that unless you really understand how this type of amp works, it's really easy to make assumptions that are incorrect (like the OP and a couple of the "helpers" that early on dismissed my comments).

I am very familiar with this basic topology, I have designed amps around it for years (back in the day). In the balanced dual differential topology, the phase inversion is accomplished right in the differential stages (there are two not one), and there is a push-pull voltage amp rather than a current source and class A voltage amp.

If you look at the positive side voltage amp, you will see that there is a current limiting to the base of the driver, which along with the VAS emitter resistor are semi-protective. Why is this necessary? Because the driver is a fairly low current gain part, the outputs are also fairly low gain, so the driver must be driven hard to prevent current droop under 2 and 4 ohm loads. Now, for the even trickier part.... there's some built in driver sag because the driver's collector supply's current is resistor limited and supported by the capacitor (1000uF/10V) between the collector and the speaker output. Under normal conditions, there is just enough charge on the cap to hold up the supply voltage (this absolute voltage rises and falls with the signal but is referenced to speaker output). If the amp is short circuited, the current draw on the driver increases and it sucks the cap down and the voltage and available current falls.

Because there is no VI limiting on the amp, survival depends on this mechanism working 100% of the time but in fact it's rather crude and not foolproof. This is why it's not used in most designs, though QSC did something similar (not identical) on their Series 1 and USA models which was effective.

Now in the event of a failure, even though the driver is protected under normal operation, the voltage amp may be exposed to a short circuit if there is an output transistor bass to emitter or bass to collector short which takes out the driver. Ideally, the 39 ohm current limiting resistor will open (and make a mess) protecting the voltage amp, but in reality what can happen is that the resistor opens, the and saturates whatever is left of the output stage because the global NFB drivers the amp to the opposite rail.

This is why it's really important to understand how the amp works, which helps understand where to look and what specifically to look for.

In my designs, I use constant current sources for the voltage amp stages so that in the currents are inherently limited in the event of an abnormal load. I also use a triple Darlington output stage (with ~10x more current gain) so that I can more effectively keep the currents I need to worry about under failure to much lower values. I also use VI limiting in the output stage so that the currents are guaranteed to be limited to within the SOA of the output devices. All of these techniques are used in most pro audio designs in general because they result in much higher reliability and less catastrophic damage to PCBs and components. I have yet to see one of my amps using this topology suffer from a catastrophic failure, the damage is almost always limited to an output or two and rarely a driver.

The question to ask is if it's worth investing the time and materials is worth it for this amp, and if the OP has the expertise to repair this problem correctly. Looks like they sell for about $600 used (average) on eBay.
giphy.gif
 
If you look closely (it's not obvious until you see it) at the schematic, you will see some unique details that point to some inherent issues regarding cascading catastrophic failure. This is why I mentioned that unless you really understand how this type of amp works, it's really easy to make assumptions that are incorrect (like the OP and a couple of the "helpers" that early on dismissed my comments).

I am very familiar with this basic topology, I have designed amps around it for years (back in the day). In the balanced dual differential topology, the phase inversion is accomplished right in the differential stages (there are two not one), and there is a push-pull voltage amp rather than a current source and class A voltage amp.

If you look at the positive side voltage amp, you will see that there is a current limiting to the base of the driver, which along with the VAS emitter resistor are semi-protective. Why is this necessary? Because the driver is a fairly low current gain part, the outputs are also fairly low gain, so the driver must be driven hard to prevent current droop under 2 and 4 ohm loads. Now, for the even trickier part.... there's some built in driver sag because the driver's collector supply's current is resistor limited and supported by the capacitor (1000uF/10V) between the collector and the speaker output. Under normal conditions, there is just enough charge on the cap to hold up the supply voltage (this absolute voltage rises and falls with the signal but is referenced to speaker output). If the amp is short circuited, the current draw on the driver increases and it sucks the cap down and the voltage and available current falls.

Because there is no VI limiting on the amp, survival depends on this mechanism working 100% of the time but in fact it's rather crude and not foolproof. This is why it's not used in most designs, though QSC did something similar (not identical) on their Series 1 and USA models which was effective.

Now in the event of a failure, even though the driver is protected under normal operation, the voltage amp may be exposed to a short circuit if there is an output transistor bass to emitter or bass to collector short which takes out the driver. Ideally, the 39 ohm current limiting resistor will open (and make a mess) protecting the voltage amp, but in reality what can happen is that the resistor opens, the and saturates whatever is left of the output stage because the global NFB drivers the amp to the opposite rail.

This is why it's really important to understand how the amp works, which helps understand where to look and what specifically to look for.

In my designs, I use constant current sources for the voltage amp stages so that in the currents are inherently limited in the event of an abnormal load. I also use a triple Darlington output stage (with ~10x more current gain) so that I can more effectively keep the currents I need to worry about under failure to much lower values. I also use VI limiting in the output stage so that the currents are guaranteed to be limited to within the SOA of the output devices. All of these techniques are used in most pro audio designs in general because they result in much higher reliability and less catastrophic damage to PCBs and components. I have yet to see one of my amps using this topology suffer from a catastrophic failure, the damage is almost always limited to an output or two and rarely a driver.

The question to ask is if it's worth investing the time and materials is worth it for this amp, and if the OP has the expertise to repair this problem correctly. Looks like they sell for about $600 used (average) on eBay.
Andy - Thanks for your additional insights. I had noted the somewhat unique derived power to the drivers, but between not wanting to overcomplicate my response and post-op medications having me slowed waaaay down at the moment, didn't go there. Doing your own repair, the time is free, and unless these output devices are rediculous, parts cost to repair this looks like it would not be bad (assuming the free time an skills are there). In any case, that additional voltage source does not do to much to complicate a repair, considering how simple it it, but it makes this major failure a bit harder to explain. Sometime, it seems the best answer to that is simply "s$1t happens" and to move on, as I see it . . . In any case, no matter how it got there, hopefully we agree that for whatever reason the output stage of this failed and shorted rail to rail
 
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Andy - Thanks for your additional insights. I had noted the somewhat unique derived power to the drivers, but between not wanting to overcomplicate my response and post-op medications having me slowed waaaay down at the moment, didn't go there. Doing your own repair, the time is free, and unless these output devices are rediculous, parts cost to repair this looks like it would not be bad (assuming the free time an skills are there). In any case, that additional voltage source does not do to much to complicate a repair, considering how simple it it, but it makes this major failure a bit harder to explain. Sometime, it seems the best answer to that is simply "s$1t happens" and to move on, as I see it . . . In any case, no matter how it got there, hopefully we agree that for whatever reason the output stage of this failed and shorted rail to rail
What it does do is complicate the repair due to the catastrophic tendencies.

Good luck on your recovery, nap time is not under-rated!
 
That amp sure did cook. With such a failure it'll be difficult to determine the cause. Excessive current resulted in component and PCB failures. A forensic analysis performed by the manufacturer would be interesting. Also if there were any failure related board or component revisions since this product was manufactured. Having the tech check it out was good. Sometimes it's also good to contact customer service with the serial number when buying an amp and ask if there are any updates available.

It would help if you to noted how the output was set up to rule out user error. Good thing that it didn't take a speaker cab with it.
Good point. Checking with the manufacturer or a service center before buying an older used amp may reveal some useful info. I'm not going to be attempting any repairs on the amp. For curiosity's sake, the amp was running in bridged mode when the fault happened. The bridge output was the only one being used with and 8x10 8ohm cab. The blown resistor is R27A very near the output of the low power amp.
 
The schematic for this looks like ampretty much run of the mill class AB amp channel . . . no magic there, and pretty easy to work on. Looking at the pics, either I'm not seeing something on this tablet, but the board does notlook too bas to me either - I can really only see one fubar heavy trace, and suitably heavy wire on the surface of the trace will work fine - just keep it snug and where the missing part was, and EMI and such should not change enough to care.

I assume the power supply has been tested to be OK (and it's certainly beefy to have eaten this much and survived.

I will speculate on failure based on what I have encountered, but remember, it's not on my bench, so I'm jusf applying my experience with similar ampsmto what you have offered . . . .

In the "end game", what you have is that both sets of output transistors (3 to the positive rail and 3 to the negatice) have failed to a short circuit such that it ate emitter resistors (the .47 ohm devices), and ultimately blew a foil apart instead of a fuse, thus stopping current flow. The issue of why is harder, but there are a couple typical scenarios:

1) An single output device on one side failed to a short. (This would basically cause the output to be pure DC at that point) When the opposing side tried to conduct, it would basically short the supplu, producing a lot of heat on those devices, and failure in short order, resulting in what you see.

2) Kind of a variant of the above, and which seems to track better with the description of the failure. Due to a weak/defextive device, driving too low of an impedence load, or phase of the moon, an output device on one side (maybe more) failed to open. The amp would still work, but the surviving output devices on that side would be working far harder than they were intended too, and likely would have run very hot making at least that section of the heatsink seem much warmer than normal. Continued use this way caused one of those devices to fail to a short, dropping right into scenario #1 above.

What really can't be absolutely determined is why . . . but typical are bad load or obstructed cooling (I serviced amps for a couple of clubs, and it was interesting that the failures were always so similar that I could get most of the parts ordered before I saw it, and the observed cause was alway massive bar-funk buildup choking cooling air off. This looks really clean, so I tend to speculate this is a "driving too low of an impedance" type of failure (even if the cabs are labelled fine, a failing driver can drop in impedance as well . . . gotta check everything.

One other thing to consider (and you have been "there" to check it's condition) is that heatbsink compound frequently degrades with age (or the assembly tech skimped) and that could have caused an output device to overheat, triggering this failure.

While I typically don't find all output devices failed (typically, on the side that went first, since the current dump is through the failure, others survive without being stressed) but it sounds like you did, I'd replace all failed outputs, and have a good hard look at the driver transistors (TIP41 on one side - I don't recall if both sides are the same) since I often see these faults take those. Typically, most prior to that survives . . . . Check the emitter resistors closely, since they take a beating in thisntype of fault, and any thing else that looks baked - find it on the schematic, and see what it does (I can't tell what part the burned larger resistor is on your pic, but it would be typical for that to be the emitter resistor for the first device to short). With the power devices out, you should be able to meter/test the remajning resistkrs and diodes without issue.

Be sure to check every fuse in this thing and ensure that is the correct type and rating! I am somewhat amazed that a PCB trace failed before a fuse (and no, I have not taken time to review fusing on the schemo. . . )

With finals/drivers out, bring it up current limited and see if you have proper signal at the inputs to the drivers. If you do, start repopolating. If not, you need to work back upstream until you do. Once repopulated, again come up current limited and do a basic test, and leave it on for an hour of so. From here, it's kind of up to you, but I tended to run the bar amps into a minimum rated impedance dummy load using typical program material at just the edge of clip for at least 8 hours to stress test. (Actually used to use the first Madonna CD for this . . . ). If nothing else failed, it would go back, and I never had a repeat failure!

(Also clean along the way . . . I left that out here, but the bar amps started out with pulling the boards and a very deep wet clean with a soft brush and dry before starting, otherwise, everything go contaminated, and you wanted to gag being near it . . . Ultimately, cleanliness should be the same as if new on a repair as I see it . . .

And lastly, myself, I'd trust a proper repair far more than new. First, all other components have been run and tested over time (so no infant mortality in the front end). And I trust my work. (And frankly the misguided level of paranoia about using repaired gear here I find quite amusing. If I had a buck for every fictitious statement I have heard on the topic, I could retire! (That, or that are an awful lot of hacks in the biz making others experience differ)

(And my apologies if I am rambling, bad grammar, typos, etc. . . . I had a pretty major surgery last Friday, and while I'm off the "Good stuff" the muscle relaxants and such are still messing with me)

No apologies necessary. Thanks for the thorough and pretty easy to understand response and your discussion of what may have triggered this is appreciated. I'll be checking the fuses in any used amp I get from here on out for sure and checking cabinet impedance more often. I do on my own equipment periodically but it doesn't always come to mind first thing. Is there an easy way to check actual impedance? I've got a good idea of what DCR should look like just wondered if there's a better way to measure. Very true with the age of the amp and unknown amount of abuse it's seen an output device could have just given up to set things in motion. It looks like it's been taken care of but it can't be known for sure and sometimes parts just fail. And thanks for the guidance in the repair procedure, but the amp will be out of my hands tomorrow. It's just as well, this has been cutting in to my practice time.
Lastly, I'm with you in general on repaired stuff being solid (assuming repairs were done well). I'm all for buying refurbished products too. Typically they are held to higher standards because the company doesn't want to see it come back again. But something like this is old enough that we could be dealing with a similar condition on the other power amp next year.
 
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If you look closely (it's not obvious until you see it) at the schematic, you will see some unique details that point to some inherent issues regarding cascading catastrophic failure. This is why I mentioned that unless you really understand how this type of amp works, it's really easy to make assumptions that are incorrect (like the OP and a couple of the "helpers" that early on dismissed my comments).

I am very familiar with this basic topology, I have designed amps around it for years (back in the day). In the balanced dual differential topology, the phase inversion is accomplished right in the differential stages (there are two not one), and there is a push-pull voltage amp rather than a current source and class A voltage amp.

If you look at the positive side voltage amp, you will see that there is a current limiting to the base of the driver, which along with the VAS emitter resistor are semi-protective. Why is this necessary? Because the driver is a fairly low current gain part, the outputs are also fairly low gain, so the driver must be driven hard to prevent current droop under 2 and 4 ohm loads. Now, for the even trickier part.... there's some built in driver sag because the driver's collector supply's current is resistor limited and supported by the capacitor (1000uF/10V) between the collector and the speaker output. Under normal conditions, there is just enough charge on the cap to hold up the supply voltage (this absolute voltage rises and falls with the signal but is referenced to speaker output). If the amp is short circuited, the current draw on the driver increases and it sucks the cap down and the voltage and available current falls.

Because there is no VI limiting on the amp, survival depends on this mechanism working 100% of the time but in fact it's rather crude and not foolproof. This is why it's not used in most designs, though QSC did something similar (not identical) on their Series 1 and USA models which was effective.

Now in the event of a failure, even though the driver is protected under normal operation, the voltage amp may be exposed to a short circuit if there is an output transistor bass to emitter or bass to collector short which takes out the driver. Ideally, the 39 ohm current limiting resistor will open (and make a mess) protecting the voltage amp, but in reality what can happen is that the resistor opens, the and saturates whatever is left of the output stage because the global NFB drivers the amp to the opposite rail.

This is why it's really important to understand how the amp works, which helps understand where to look and what specifically to look for.

In my designs, I use constant current sources for the voltage amp stages so that in the currents are inherently limited in the event of an abnormal load. I also use a triple Darlington output stage (with ~10x more current gain) so that I can more effectively keep the currents I need to worry about under failure to much lower values. I also use VI limiting in the output stage so that the currents are guaranteed to be limited to within the SOA of the output devices. All of these techniques are used in most pro audio designs in general because they result in much higher reliability and less catastrophic damage to PCBs and components. I have yet to see one of my amps using this topology suffer from a catastrophic failure, the damage is almost always limited to an output or two and rarely a driver.

The question to ask is if it's worth investing the time and materials is worth it for this amp, and if the OP has the expertise to repair this problem correctly. Looks like they sell for about $600 used (average) on eBay.
Thanks for this. Feel like I might have learned something.
 
Good point. Checking with the manufacturer or a service center before buying an older used amp may reveal some useful info. I'm not going to be attempting any repairs on the amp. For curiosity's sake, the amp was running in bridged mode when the fault happened. The bridge output was the only one being used with and 8x10 8ohm cab. The blown resistor is R27A very near the output of the low power amp.

The tubular resistor has carbon on it. It was stressed. The cement block resistor failure is interesting. They often fail by blowing out on the side with the adhesive that seals the block. Never face that side against the PCB. This failure was at the end against the board. I wonder if the resistor failed or if the current and heat overwhelmed the PCB. A good reason for not mounting the end of power resistors right against the board. If they had the space, they could have mounted the cement block resistors lying down and a bit proud of the PCB. Sometimes ceramic spacers are used.

An amp should be designed with fault tolerance in mind.
 
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Many thought it. One had the Nads to say it. I commend your honesty.
Many thought it. One had the Nads to say it. I commend your honesty.
It's easy to armchair quarterback something when you already know the outcome. I started from a perspective of being told that the amp had just been given the green light from a tech. My buddy thought he smelled something which standing right there seemed to be coming from the other side of the amp- glue and old foam (very volatile stuff) stuck to the heat sink and producing an odor at normal operating temp (assuming the thermostats were working to spec). He said the fan came on and shut off like he would expect. So I thought it was a case of overabundance of caution. Turns out the failure that occurred likely didn't have anything to do with the smell that he was worried about. It's become apparent that I could have made myself look better by including the full story in my original post. Or Shadowgroover could have asked where my head was at when this was going on. Instead he pointed fingers, called my actions pathetic, and called me a foolish perpetrator. He also made it clear that he thinks I deserve to have the amp blow up on me. You commend him. Bless both you guys.
 
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