X-Bass - Experimental 3 Pickup Bass

[Flux Jetson]

Thanks for the replies. I'll get back to you on them soon, SOOPER busy at work lately.

 

[Flux Jetson]

Ok folks ... I'm back at it. I am SUPER encouraged by the supportive things said in the posts that I missed while I have been working. I was certain I would be confronted with a lot of "that's stupid, you're stupid!" replies as many of my ideas and projects are met with resistance.

Ok, let me get to answering the posts I missed while I was chained to the workbench.

Thanks again, fellow mangs!

 

[Flux Jetson]

Meanwhile, a friend of mine plays something like this:
Link Removed
His father gave him this bass guitar (I mean model, not the same seen on photo), it has loads of settings, and as you can see also 3 pickups.
And by the way, it comes from 1983, from mighty USSR. As many products from this country its not matched any way by US standarts (f.ex. 23 frets or built in fuzz ...)

Anyway to me its a really good idea. Have you seen a "Strato bass" projects ? They had put 3 pu's as well, and it sounds not bad.

Thanks for the positive mojo! I'll have to check out the basses you've mentioned.

Just so you are aware, that link you've posted is dead.

 

[Flux Jetson]

Awesome mock-up that answers some questions re: Ric vs Jazz sweet-spots. I never bothered to measure my ex-Jazz OR ask a Ric owner for specs. IF it's as simple as pickup placement, the possibility of Ric-ish and Jazz sounds from a single axe is crazy.

First things first, thank you for the supportive comments. Now .... on to pickup placement ...

Well, I'm going by what I have heard with my ears. I've heard a number of project basses that have had the pickups placed in the F24 and F36 locations ("Ric" positions) and while they don't sound precisely like a Ric does, ~that essence~ is most certainly achieved by using that pickup placement.

As David of SDG Lutherie has pointed out, the reason a Jazz bass sounds ~scooped~ when both pickups are on is due to the placement and separation of the pickups. The bridge pickup provides the top end, the neck pickup provides the low end, and the distance between them determines the width and (to a lesser degree) the depth of the scoop.

To me, a Ric sounds more ballsy, a lower low-end and a lower high-end than the J sounds. I've concluded that a part (a large part) of ~why~ is due to taking the two pickups on a Jazz bass, and moving the pair northward (towards the headstock, just like a Ric is set up) where the sound is the strings is deeper/lower. So you still get the spread-pickup-induced-scoop, but the scoop is moved towards the lower end of the graph. The peaks are also moved right along with the scoop to the lower frequency end of the graph.

So look at a freq graph, draw that "smile" Eq shape on it ... now move the whole danged smile shape towards the low end. Move it lower, perhaps a 100hz, maybe even 200hz. Result? Ric magic.

I've been messing around with my vast array of filters and EQs lately (as time permits). I've been forcing my Jazz bass to produce that same scoop that the Ric produces very naturally. I start my using just the neck pickup, so I have nothing to "undo" from the J's own natural scoop produced with both pickups on. Then I begin to really over-eq the living hell out of it, to literally force the right EQ curve in the right place. Sure enough, I get a very strong Ric tone if I create a very deep peak-scoop-peak shape and move it bass-wards. I even have to stand sortof next-to my bass cabs to get the full effect so as to attenuate the upper end even more (as a Ric does).

So I am even more convinced that placing pickups in the Ric positions (F24 and F36) will produce the largest chunk of Ric sounds.

So ... that said ....

If I place two pickups in the standard J locations, I'll have J tones. And place a 2nd set of pickups in the Ric locations, I'll get Ric sounds. The wild card is the "Super P" pickup I've come up with. That critter may even be the subject of an entirely different bass. Then again it may provide me with a THIRD bass tone .. P!!!!

So out of one bass, I may be able to get .. Precision, Jazz, and Rickenbacker sounds. The P and Ric sounds may be slightly diluted, but as I've mentioned before most bass players tweak and wank on their sounds so much that they rarely sound ~exactly~ like the original bass in the first place. So these diluted tones may even sound better than the originals. We'll have to see about that, won't we!

And I totally "get" your diagonal line representing where each string gets picked (or plucked). This has really been bugging me lately, having to move my right hand so much along the length of the strings to get the refined tone I'm seeking......
If my vote means anything, I would love to see and hear the 4-pickup RJ built.

Yea .. see .. now that alone supports the notion that pickup placement has a strong influence on how all of this will work out! That diagonal pluck-line sound is even noticable when you play the bass unplugged.

Thanks again for the enthused reply.

 

[Flux Jetson]

Where did you find those single bobbins? I have been on the same track myself for achieving humbucking in a single row PU. I imagine that those bobbins are really easy to wind, too.

While speaking with David at SGD Lutherie he commented that those are sewing machine bobbins. He and I both agree that the use of pushback wire was sortof unnecessary though. I work with that crap a lot and it is just such a hassle, and really pretty lousy in many ways. But .... it has MOJO .... so that guy Sentell that winds those is pretty much the marketing genius.

Who makes these?

Those dual single coil split pickups are from Sentell Pickups. I just saw them on eBay, and I think I have to order a set. My genius engineer says that that is the way they SHOULD be made.

Here ya go .... $80 per set.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/140912699205?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Thanks for the info! They look like a very convenient way to get one humbucking pickup per string, using each half rotated 90 degrees.

Yea .... these pickups most certainly have my attention!!

Imagine those pickups used in the Super P pickup setup I've come up with (below)! Oh HELLS yea!

 

[Flux Jetson]

The super-P pickup array is definitely a new thing for me, even though it should've been an obvious thing. Can't wait to see how it'll work if you go that way.

Yea, I'm pretty fired up about it too. Thanks for the compliments!

 

[Flux Jetson]

For what it's worth, I once had a Rickenbacker in which I swapped out the stock pickups for 22-pole Carvin bass pickups. The sound might have changed a bit, but not much. It still had that quintessential Ric flavor to the tone, which led me to believe that a lot of the sound had to do with the pickup placement and the wood.

Yet more to support the idea that pickup placement has a lot to do with the essence of The Ric. My guess is that at least 80% of the tone is generated by that factor alone.

 

[Flux Jetson]

Ummm...I don't really get some of the technical aspects of your descriptions, but this is fascinating. You are manifesting so many of my fantasies and curiosities. Keep 'em coming!

Would love to hear any sound samples when you're ready.

I'll most certainly post SoundCloud tracks of the X-Bass as things get installed and developed. Thanks for the forward push!

I've been away from TB for a while and I come back and find you guys are hitting the neatest stuff ever around here. Just the double jack harness alone is cool enough and its just a side note in this thread. Awesome. Between Flux owning TB with this thread and Marko's carbon fiber threads and great designs I'm getting no work done cuz all I want to do is catch up with you mad scientists. Bravo.

Dayum! Total compliment there. Thanks a lot for the encouraging speaks there. (If you like mad scientist weirdness, take a look at the thread that is linked in my signature).

Ok .. wow .... just totally wow. I'm speaking to everyone that has replied in this thread. I was losing a little bit of steam on this project, but with all of the encouragment and positive mojo sent my way I am once again fully enthused and re-energized about moving forward.

I have nearly everything I need to get going here, all that is missing is that cheapo set of P-Bass pickups to get the SUPER-P pickup array done. It's ordered, and paid for. Just have to wait for that set to arrive from Hong Kong to set them in and set them up. I feel that I really need to install them and actually make the Super-P a part of this entire bass. So there will be ...

** Jazz Bass Bridge pickup in the Jazz bass bridge position.
** Jazz bass bridge pickup inthe Ric bridge position.
** Super-P pickup array in the J-bass/P-bass neck position, (maybe using that Sentell P-Bass single bobbin pickup there!)
** Jazz Bass Neck pickup in the Ric neck position.

.... like this ......

I just might end up with J sounds, P sounds, and Ric sounds! And who knows what else when various coils are selected solo or mixed with other pickups. My guess is that the choices will be subjected to Darwinian cuts and there will only be a few left over after testing is done. My hope of hopes is that I'll end up with just the Ric Bridge, the Super-P and the Ric neck.

If I get REALLY lucky, then just the Super-P setup will do everything I myself need......

With these ......

If that delivers a righteous fat unscooped tone with some brightness, then my parametrics can do the rest. The Super-P might also simply need a little more ~spread~ between the two P-bass coils along with the "right" J-bass pickup between them to provide everything I need. That would be a great simple setup.

Time and testing will tell us everything.

Thanks again everyone, you've refueled my spirit.

Fluxoid.

 

[Doner Designs]

Five pickups eh...you are making me jealous! Lovin it!

I'll most certainly post SoundCloud tracks of the X-Bass as things get installed and developed. Thanks for the forward push!



Dayum! Total compliment there. Thanks a lot for the encouraging speaks there. (If you like mad scientist weirdness, take a look at the thread that is linked in my signature).

Ok .. wow .... just totally wow. I'm speaking to everyone that has replied in this thread. I was losing a little bit of steam on this project, but with all of the encouragment and positive mojo sent my way I am once again fully enthused and re-energized about moving forward.

I have nearly everything I need to get going here, all that is missing is that cheapo set of P-Bass pickups to get the SUPER-P pickup array done. It's ordered, and paid for. Just have to wait for that set to arrive from Hong Kong to set them in and set them up. I feel that I really need to install them and actually make the Super-P a part of this entire bass. So there will be ...

** Jazz Bass Bridge pickup in the Jazz bass bridge position.
** Jazz bass bridge pickup inthe Ric bridge position.
** Super-P pickup array in the J-bass/P-bass neck position, (maybe using that Sentell P-Bass single bobbin pickup there!)
** Jazz Bass Neck pickup in the Ric neck position.

.... like this ......

I just might end up with J sounds, P sounds, and Ric sounds! And who knows what else when various coils are selected solo or mixed with other pickups. My guess is that the choices will be subjected to Darwinian cuts and there will only be a few left over after testing is done. My hope of hopes is that I'll end up with just the Ric Bridge, the Super-P and the Ric neck.

If I get REALLY lucky, then just the Super-P setup will do everything I myself need......

With these ......

If that delivers a righteous fat unscooped tone with some brightness, then my parametrics can do the rest. The Super-P might also simply need a little more ~spread~ between the two P-bass coils along with the "right" J-bass pickup between them to provide everything I need. That would be a great simple setup.

Time and testing will tell us everything.

Thanks again everyone, you've refueled my spirit.

Fluxoid.

 

[mgalat]

So, I'm dying to see how this turns out. Subb'd in like everyone else should be.

 

[Flux Jetson]

Five pickups eh...you are making me jealous! Lovin it!

WEll, just to keep things in context, the idea is to test this stuff out with the ability to instantly A/B (C/D/E/F ????) between pickups as well as test various combinations to see what survives and is put on the upcoming Warmoth body.

Since everyone has their own opinions and descriptions about how ~this~ sounds or ~that~ sounds, I just figured that since I'll be cutting a universal pickup cavity (aka "bathtub"), and since I have aquired a few pickups, it seems like a good idea to just install the known working setups and see what works out for me.

Doing it this way provides the ability to listen to instant comparisons, as well as try some combinations that may have not been tried, or at least have not been described to me in such a manner that satisfies my own curiousity.

I have high hopes for the Super-P combination of the P-Bass "tetris block" pair straddling the J bass pickup. When you look at that arrangement in a more realistic light (instead of in my poorly drawn diagram) the P pickups are actually very close to the Ric-Bridge and Ric-neck pickups. So much so that if the P pickups were to be spread out just a little more they'd nearly be in the Ric locations. The whole notion really gets my mind active!

So, since I have the pickups, I have the bass, I'm willing to install all of this stuff all at once ... why not?

I also have the processing gear to support these experiments and produce recorded demonstrations. I figure everything is aligned, so I'd be foolish to not go forward with this.

 

[Flux Jetson]

So, I'm dying to see how this turns out. Subb'd in like everyone else should be.

Thanks! I'm wanting to hear this pretty badly myself!

I still need to practice with the router a bit before I get after it. Steve Doner has spoken of a great method, which is to use a Dremel with a cutoff wheel to sortof ~etch~ the outline first, cutting neatly through the paint/laquer/clearcoat/whatver to get the situation started and provide a sortof set of lines to stay within. That sounds quite sensible to me, so I think I'll try that out on some 2x6 scraps I have, probably a number of times to get familiar with the router and the way it handles and behaves. Then ... take a deep breath, and begin surgery in the bass body.

We have EXCELLENT weather ahead of us over the next week (80s and windless) so the Bass Gods are telling me that the time is now!

And you people should know me well enough by now to know that I will take plenty of pics along the way.

 

[KeithAlanK]

And you people should know me well enough by now to know that I will take plenty of pics along the way.

Looking forward to it!

Since you have measured Rics and Js and Ps while I don't have access to any of the above, I was wondering if you could help me figure out where the mini-humbuckers on my Ibanez Iceman (2004 Korean ICB200) fit into the grand scheme of placement?

It's tone with both on full or either pickup dialed back to 8 has been very inspiring and satisfying ever since I got it, so I'm very curious where it's measurements place them compared to the greats.

34" scale
Nut to center of neck pickup = 28 5/8"
Nut to center of bridge pickup = 32 3/16"

To my eye it looks roughly P/J, but I doubt it.
All I know is that I like it.

 

[howardcano]

I still need to practice with the router a bit before I get after it. Steve Doner has spoken of a great method, which is to use a Dremel with a cutoff wheel to sortof ~etch~ the outline first, cutting neatly through the paint/laquer/clearcoat/whatver to get the situation started and provide a sortof set of lines to stay within. That sounds quite sensible to me, so I think I'll try that out on some 2x6 scraps I have, probably a number of times to get familiar with the router and the way it handles and behaves. Then ... take a deep breath, and begin surgery in the bass body.

This sounds like you are going to free-hand the routing. If so, you're braver than I am!

It doesn't take too long to make a jig for routing the body. Using a jig, there's no chance of making a mistake (unless the mistake is in the design of the jig.)

 

[Flux Jetson]

This sounds like you are going to free-hand the routing. If so, you're braver than I am!

It doesn't take too long to make a jig for routing the body. Using a jig, there's no chance of making a mistake (unless the mistake is in the design of the jig.)

I plan on using some sort of jigging. I'll know more once I get the bass totally torn down and get the works all out there in the shop with it all in front of me.

I'm fairly sure I have everything needed to set up at least a modest yet effective means of guiding the router along. At the very outside of this idea, I also have a 32" square column mill that I can put to work if I feel the need. I'm just aiming at making a rectangular cavity, nothing elaborate .. just a place to be able to park some pickups. I know it won't look very elegant, but then again I bought this bass specifically to use as a basis for this exact type of experimentation.

The hard part is that since I bought it, I've become attached to it. Big mistake!

 

[Flux Jetson]

Well, I may be installing a humbucker in the neck position of the X-bass. I was in Tucson today (had an appt at the VA hospital there for an MRI). While we were there in Tucson we went to the local Guitar Center and I got to try out an Epiphone Thunderbird. Holy SHYTE that thing is powerful. I really liked the neck-pu-only sound, when EQ'd right it was very pleasing.

So now I may have to rethink this whole thing I'm doing. On the other hand I may just pop for the $300 bucks and just get the T-bird as an addition to my bass stable.

What gets me is that the Epiphone Thunderbird is slated as having an alder body and a maple neck on all of the big retailer websites, but for all the world that body looked like mahogany to me! (and the Epiphone website says the body is mahogany and the neck is maple). My point is that if in fact the Epi T-Bird IS alder/maple, then I should be able to get a decent mimmick tone by using a T-type humbucker in the neck position of the X-Bass.

In any case I was able to ge some seriously great "Geddy type" sounds out of the T.

So now I am a bit fogged .. ugh.

Wouldn't it be funny if I figure out how to practically configure Precision Bass pickups in the P location, Jazz Bass pickups in the J Bridge and Ric bridge locations, and Thunderbird IV neck pickup in the Ric location in this X-Bass?

It would have to be called the RTPJ, or PRJT, or something! P pickups, T pickups, and J pickups, in Ric, P, and J bass locations!

Hmmm ..... could it even be feasible? (Uh oh ... I am smelling the ~smoke~ of a brainiac obsession session coming on!)

 

[Flux Jetson]

Ok, that bit of testing and experimenting is DONE. The T-Bird pickup idea was a poor distraction. I'm back on track with the original plan now. The "Super-P" pickup in the center of the array has me VERY intrigued.

I have some more bill-paying work to get done, so as soon as that is completed I'll devote my next project time slot to doing the routing on this X-Bass. I now have all of the pickups I need to get this started. I have two full sets of Duncan Designed J-bass pickups and I got in a set of cheapo P-Bass pickups ($six bucks .. shipped!) to at least get things all properly mounted and ligned up.

Going with:

** J-bass pickups in standard J-Bass locations
** J-bass pickups in Ric locations.
** P-pass pickups in ~sorta~ standard P-bass location.

I'm thinking I'll go with just TWO output jacks, and then use some easy switching to simply turn on/off various pickups. At least for now. I have toyed with giving each pickup it's own output (using like a 5-conductor XLR jack patched up to a breakout box where I can split everything up and process each pickup as desired).

Keep in mind the idea here is to try these things out, then thin out the herd to just what I feel I want to keep in there. My guess is that the J-bridge pickup will go away, leaving the two Ric positoned pickups and some form of P-bass pickup (whether it is that Super P or just a standard P-bass pickup setup is unknown). But all of this has to be tried out to be easily and quickly A/B'd so solid choices may be made.

Onward ....

 

[Scott in Dallas]

I am absolutely loving this thread.

I'm building a Stingray/Jazz hybrid bass, and I decided that I wanted to try to get a Rickenbacker growl from it, if possible, and the pickup positioning was my plan for doing so. I also recently acquired a Thunderbird pickup from a fellow TBer, which is intended for a different project, but I can always change my mind.

Can't wait to hear how these sound, because I'm totally going to piggyback on your results.

 

[Flux Jetson]

I am absolutely loving this thread.

I'm building a Stingray/Jazz hybrid bass, and I decided that I wanted to try to get a Rickenbacker growl from it, if possible, and the pickup positioning was my plan for doing so. I also recently acquired a Thunderbird pickup from a fellow TBer, which is intended for a different project, but I can always change my mind.

Can't wait to hear how these sound, because I'm totally going to piggyback on your results.

Sounds great. And if you elect to use it commercially perhaps we could discuss a good deal on a ready to go unfinished body for me? Just a bare body in the shape of my choice, all the routing done and predrilling done (for stuff like the bridge, string through, neck screw holes, and so on), no guts/no hardware? Nudge nudge wink wink ....

I'll be moving forward soon. I keep getting bogged down with work issues. I have everything I need sitting here staring at me .... mocking me ... I just need to tear the bass completely down to do the cavity cutting, then reassemble it, mount pickups, and begin testing.

I have already purchased "True RTA" as well so I can post screenshots of various analyzer screens and o-scope screens, as well as posting recordings. So I am fully dedicated to the project!

So as soon as I scare up a full day to get this rolling I'm all over it.

Thanks for the encouraging push as well, Scott.

 

[Flux Jetson]

Ok, picked up the router guide bushings, and have the proper router bits ready to go as well.

Just to add gasoline to this fire, it looks like the headless bass idea I've had for a long time is back on. What stopped me from moving forward with that level of modifications was (what I thought to be) the difficulty in mounting the headpiece. But thanks to some encouragement and ideas from the fellas in this thread heyuh .....

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f57/can-headless-adaptor-installed-jazz-neck-983918/

... the headless notion is back in motion.

So .... that will be another stage of the X-Bass.

Anyhow, I'm about ready to begin with the routing. Hopefully some munnycheck will flow in over the next few days (ebay sales) and I'll be able to get the rest of the needed tools. I need a couple of wood chisels, the proper router bit, and some courage!



Have no fear, this project is still in full swing. It's just been bogged down a bit.