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x32 Aux outs and phantom power?

tbirdsp

tbirdsp

Sep 18, 2012
1,799
913
Chattanooga, TN
#1
I'm thinking about running a condenser mic on stage for ambient sound in my IEM (PSM200) I have a little 2-channel Yamaha mixer I would use - one channel for the mic and the other would be the line from the x32 for my monitor mix. Output from the mixer to one channel of the PSM200 (I run my bass into the other PSM channel then thru to the PA).

Will it damage the x32 if I apply phantom power to the aux line feeding into my mixer? I have to turn it on to power the condenser mic of course.
 
#2
Nominally, mixers do not output phantom on line-level inputs.

On the very strange occurrence that yours does, it shouldn't effect the line-out of anything due to the way that phantom power works.

48V Phantom Power is actually a 24V - 0V - 24V supply with 0V being the ground of your connector. Which means that unless a device is looking for phantom power, it may as well not be there as it has a sum potential voltage of 0V

Simply, it'll be fine.
 
#4
The mixer has 2 mic/line level XLR/ 1/4" combo jacks. There is a 26 db pad switch on both channels (Yam MG06X). The cable coming from the x32 is an XLR (maybe I confused the issue by calling it a "line") that normally plugs into my PSM 200 box directly. Now it will be going into the mixer, the same as you would plug in a microphone. There is only one switch on the mixer to engage phantom power, so it will be supplied to both mixer channels. So I'm 99.9% sure that there WILL be phantom power applied to the cable, but from your explanation it won't matter.
 
#5
Actually, it used to be that phantom power could damage mixer outputs a long time ago and it's always a good idea to check with the manufacturer. However, most, if not all, mixers have designed their outputs to withstand phantom power applied to them in situations such as yours. I did check on the X32 and yes, phantom power will not harm the outputs. I've read about "DC blocking caps used to protect the output circuitry". I don't understand the design parameters, but early on in my pro sound career, it was a concern.

We owned a Soundcraft Series Five mixing console, designed about 20 years ago (and a wonderful-sounding analog console),
dynImage.jpeg
that was susceptible to damage to the outputs from phantom power being applied. We started seeing video trucks with cheap little Mackie mixers with a global phantom power switch. Way back then, I did smoke an output from such a situation. I figured it out when that output's meter (a group bus output going to the video truck) was acting very strange and the truck reported really bad distortion on they end. I checked their line and sure enough, it had phantom power. I pulled out a Sescom IL9 (a 1:1 isolation transformer for that line and used another group output. All was well. $125 to repair that group output, though. I made a standing rule with all the audio guys, ALWAYS, ALWAYS check any line a video truck (or anyone else) hands us.

If it were me...I'd get and carry a 1:1 transformer (from Rapco, Conquest, Whirlwind, etc) and use it (I do). Don't bother me with the "over-cautious, unnecessary, waste of time, etc" comments. I don't disagree that it probably is, but it can't hurt. However, I'm sure you'll be fine without it on the X32.

EDIT: I just noticed the post about the combo input jacks. On my little IEM mixer, instead of a transformer, I use a simple TRS-to-XLR adapter and use the 1/4" TRS side of the input (2 channels have XLR and TRS line inputs that no phantom power going out on. You can do the same thing with the TRS side side of the input jack and accomplish the same thing.
 
#7
tbirdsp said:
Thanks Geri O. The mixer is not mine so I am being overly cautious. Also I swear I had a bass head once that said not to apply phantom power to the XLR DI out.
Click to expand...

I don't at all doubt that. When I was doing pro audio, I occasionally had bassists that insisted on me taking the XLR out of the bass head. I was always very careful to check the console's phantom power switch on the bass input. I think that's not near the problem these days as it used to be. Both my EBS Fafner bass head and my Genz Benz 210 slanted 210 combo amp state in the user manual that the XLR outputs are unaffected by phantom power.
 
#8
tbirdsp said:
I'm thinking about running a condenser mic on stage for ambient sound in my IEM (PSM200) I have a little 2-channel Yamaha mixer I would use - one channel for the mic and the other would be the line from the x32 for my monitor mix. Output from the mixer to one channel of the PSM200 (I run my bass into the other PSM channel then thru to the PA).

Will it damage the x32 if I apply phantom power to the aux line feeding into my mixer? I have to turn it on to power the condenser mic of course.
Click to expand...
Been thinking about this a bit.... the hookup you have outlined above seems overly complicated and you could get the same result with a much simpler hookup, but there's not enough info in your OP to confirm that. So... a couple of questions..
  • Why do you run your bass into one PSM200 channel, then thru to the PA, then have another feed BACK from the X32?
  • Which X32 model are you using?

NOTE: Lots of assumptions here, so maybe I'm missing something on your hookup?
  1. Could you not run your bass direct to the X32 and do the same for the ambient mic (assuming a spare channel is available)?
  2. Then, use the output buss (sends on fader mix) to set your PSM200 feed levels - including the ambient mic mix - which I assume is being sent from one of the output busses or an AUX feed?
  3. I'm assuming you are doing that right now to get the monitor mix from the X32 to the PSM200?
  4. I'm ALSO assuming that your PSM200 is not housed with the mixer, so you are running XLR from X32 output to the PSM200 input anyway?
  5. You then have full control the ENTIRE monitor mix from the X32 using the iPad (X32Q) app or the Android app (mixing station) ??
With the PSM200 it's a mono mix either way... So, no extra mixer required with this approach and one less cable to hook up - you don't need to go bass -> PSM200 - and STILL get the SAME end result?
Plus, NO NEED TO WORRY about phantom power at all as X32 handles it per chan!!

Why complicate what could be a real simple solution with NO need to add a mixer and extra cabling??
 
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#9
He might be in a situation like me where he didn't always have the x32 and an aux that he can claim...

After Saturday night with another band with a small mixer and no monitors sends, I'm dying to simplify my rig.

I'm using a bass rig and a small mixer to drive my IEMs. I send bass to a DI and to the mixer as well as a house mix from whatever mixer is on hand, and sometimes kick and snare mics (where I either split the drummer's mics, or I put up my own if there drums aren't mic'ed through the PA). The DI XLR goes to the mains, the small mixer outputs go to my IEM rig, and I send an aux with my bass from my little mixer to the bass amp (which is for the band's benefit, not mine). I don't needed an ambient mic, all the band I work with have enough singers with open mics.

I think it's as tidy as it can be for the moment, which still isn't very. But it works well for me. Unless there's a singer that calls songs with no set list. And even then, I've gotten good at reading lips!
 
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#11
I run my bass into one channel of the PSM 200 so I have instant "more me" control of my bass without trying to find the tiny slider for it on my iPhone. I have to wear reading glasses to see my phone well - and I don't like wearing them on stage. Don't own an iPad. We use several different sound engineers. I want to have almost all of the control of this at my fingertips (with controls I can actually see) without demanding another mic channel beyond what I already use. My PSM 200 transmitter is placed on top of my bass cab, not at the board.
 
#12
I appreciate the attempts at help. I know what I'm doing is overly complicated, and the way s0c9 suggested would be the logical way to do this. It would take me a full page of typing to explain the myriad reasons I want to try it this way - ain't nobody got time for that;) I didn't provide much info because I really just wanted the answer to my main question - would phantom power on the aux cable damage the x32. This is just gonna be an experiment for now. If it works for me I can streamline the setup.
 
#13
tbirdsp said:
I run my bass into one channel of the PSM 200 so I have instant "more me" control of my bass without trying to find the tiny slider for it on my iPhone. I have to wear reading glasses to see my phone well - and I don't like wearing them on stage. Don't own an iPad. We use several different sound engineers. I want to have almost all of the control of this at my fingertips (with controls I can actually see) without demanding another mic channel beyond what I already use. My PSM 200 transmitter is placed on top of my bass cab, not at the board.
Click to expand...

tbirdsp said:
I appreciate the attempts at help. I know what I'm doing is overly complicated, and the way s0c9 suggested would be the logical way to do this. It would take me a full page of typing to explain the myriad reasons I want to try it this way - ain't nobody got time for that;) I didn't provide much info because I really just wanted the answer to my main question - would phantom power on the aux cable damage the x32. This is just gonna be an experiment for now. If it works for me I can streamline the setup.
Click to expand...
Makes sense to me... I doubt the X32 would be impacted by the phantom power... I'll pose the question on the Behringer X32 forum and see what they say..
 
#14
I did some digging, the X32 can take phantom power on its output, but again, and i believe you said the inputs on your mixer were the XLR combination jacks, you can use a TRS to XLR ((usually available on the Hosa rack at most music stores) and use that on the XLR cable coming from the X32. No phantom power goes out on the TRS side of those combination jacks. Or it's not supposed to...
 
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#15
Geri O said:
I did some digging, the X32 can take phantom power on its output, but again, and i believe you said the inputs on your mixer were the XLR combination jacks, you can use a TRS to XLR ((usually available on the Hosa rack at most music stores) and use that on the XLR cable coming from the X32. No phantom power goes out on the TRS side of those combination jacks. Or it's not supposed to...
Click to expand...
I was about to post the same, as someone on the X32 forum posted that they are unaware of any mixer that has "global" phantom power that could take a line level signal on the XLR inputs, so the OP should use an XLR->1/4" transformer and connect to the 1/4" input on the channel, thereby nullifying any potential phantom power issues - as phantom power (like you said already) does not work on 1/4" :thumbsup:
 
#18
SoCal80s said:
How about inserting a DI box with the ground lift engaged so there is no direct connection between the two mixers? This way you still get the benefits of XLR cables.
Click to expand...

This will certainly work, but the 1:1 isolation transformer would do the same thing. The DI may not have male and female XLRs. And it would need to be passive.

But yep, it would work if the connectors are appropriate.
 
#19
Thought I would post the resolution to this - kind of:)
Even though I said "ambient sound" in my OP I was really trying to compensate for an overall crappy in ear mix. I always felt much better when using wedge monitor than IEM with the main sound engineer we were using. One of my biggest problems was not hearing the "attack" of the kick drum - I have plenty of low end (Shure PSM 200 with Westone UM 30 triple driver buds). Some of this problem was the drummer - he bought a kit with a tiny kick drum (like 16") solely because it was easier for him to haul. Not a huge deal, but then he refused to put a hole in the head for mic placement. His kit overall was not tuned well IMHO. Engineer was also a problem - he is a part timer and doesn't know the x32 very well. He was almost always running behind so I never got a good sound check.

So - several radical steps solved my problem:
1. I bought a refurb iPad Air and run my IEM mix with X32-Mix. I have a holder on my mic stand so everything is now big enough to see and right at my fingertips - much better than having my iPhone laying on top of my amp. Will probably ditch my "more me" separate input of my bass signal and just monitor it with everything else on the aux feed from the board.
2. Replaced our drummer. He put minimum effort into the band pretty much in all respects. Some of that was because he has one young child and now another one on the way- understandable - but he wouldn't quit the band, just kept putting less and less into it. Got a new guy who is phenomenal, kit is tuned properly and sounds great. He has a mic permanently installed on a shock mount setup inside his kick.
3. Got a new sound engineer - younger guy, went to school for it, does sound full time. Always early, has everything set up so we just show up and plug and play. Great ear. An expert on the x32 mixer. He does something that I think s0c9 referenced in another post - he uses ch 1-16 for the FOH but then copies those channels to 17-32 and uses those solely for the in-ear mix. Charges more than the other guy (who was giving us a break) but it's WELL worth it.

Played the first gig with the new drummer and engineer last Fri - WOW! best IEM mix I have ever had by far. Even with only 3 rehearsals the new drummer did great, so much better groove. I am a happy camper:hyper:
 
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#20
tbirdsp said:
One of my biggest problems was not hearing the "attack" of the kick drum - I have plenty of low end (Shure PSM 200 with Westone UM 30 triple driver buds). Some of this problem was the drummer - he bought a kit with a tiny kick drum (like 16") solely because it was easier for him to haul.
Click to expand...

Might have misunderstood what you meant, but a smaller kick drum would give a more punchy sound with greater attack. Provided the guy didnt just have a weak foot, it would be purely the lack of a hole in the reso-head for a mic to go in that screwed the pooch :)
 

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