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Yanking the Tweeter/Crossover on an Avatar

Lynwood James

Lynwood James

Dec 29, 2008
117
1
Lewiston, ME
#1
I recently (yesterday) got my hands on an older Avatar cab (circa 2007). Sounds pretty good, and this cab is LOUD. It's a 4ohm 410NEO, and judging by the age, I've gathered that it has a first or second order highpass with an l-pad and then the tweeter.

Well, obviously, even with the l-pad dialed all the way down, I'm still losing a bunch of highs. Not really noticeable for more 'normal' bass playing but it's losing a Lot of highs from my dirt effects. So as usual, I need to desolder the highpass, and I just want to run the procedure by the Talkbass guru's just to make sure I'm not gonna melt my amp.

The avatar's three input jacks seem to be wired in parallel, and the two leads that go to the crossover are each connected to a different one of the jacks. Should I just desolder the two crossover leads from the input jacks? It would probably be easier (especially with my lousy soldering skills) to desolder the connects to the l-pad / other component, could this also be done?

Thanks for the help. I can post pics if needed.
 
#3
LJ, it's not clear to me what your goal is. If you want high frequencies from the cab, you should have the L-pad turned up, not down. If you're worried that some high frequencies are being diverted from the woofers to the tweeter, that is not how the Avatar crossover works. The woofers run full range (although they're not good at producing the higher frequencies) and the tweeter is protected with a high-pass filter so that it only receives frequencies above the crossover point, where the woofers have fallen off.
 
#4
if you don't want to use the tweeter, i would just wire the speaker jacks directly to the speakers and bypass the XO/tweeter altogether.
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Yeah. That's what I'm trying to do, but that already appears to be done in the cab, with the tweeter wired in addition to that.

LJ, it's not clear to me what your goal is. If you want high frequencies from the cab, you should have the L-pad turned up, not down. If you're worried that some high frequencies are being diverted from the woofers to the tweeter, that is not how the Avatar crossover works. The woofers run full range (although they're not good at producing the higher frequencies) and the tweeter is protected with a high-pass filter so that it only receives frequencies above the crossover point, where the woofers have fallen off.
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Thanks for the input...I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I want to have a lot of highs but when I'm using distortion all the highs come from the tweeter and it sounds pretty awful...if you use any high-gain pedals, I'm sure you know what I mean. So I want as much in the way of highs that the drivers can give me without using the tweeter. In TalkBass terms, I want to be able to get that SVT-cranked tone, and other fuzz-mayhem and whatnot.

However, what you've said about the avatar crossover (which I really hope isn't true) seems to be true. Do these avatar drivers really cut that much in the way of highs? I've played Trace, GK, Ampeg, and SWR cabs and their drivers got plenty of highs without the tweeter. Too bad I couldn't try an Avatar out before I got it (I looked around a fair amount)...I asked a lot of questions about these cabs but all questions are subjective. The cab may wind up in the classifieds section if I can't get the sound I want out of it...oh the quest for gear.

But to clarify...yanking the crossover and wiring the speakers direct-to-jack will NOT get me any more highs out of the drivers is what you're saying?
 
#5
The Avatar crossovers are at about 4kHz, which is well above the useful range of the woofers, so disconnecting the crossover/tweeter and running the woofers without the crossover will have no effect. If you want more high mids above where the woofers leave off but below where the tweeter takes over you'll need a midrange driver to take over where the woofers leave off, about 2kHz.
 
#6
The Avatar crossovers are at about 4kHz, which is well above the useful range of the woofers, so disconnecting the crossover/tweeter and running the woofers without the crossover will have no effect. If you want more high mids above where the woofers leave off but below where the tweeter takes over you'll need a midrange driver to take over where the woofers leave off, about 2kHz.
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Is this simply characteristic of the Avatar drivers? Again, the vast majority of the cabs I've played get a LOT more highs. For example, the stack sits next to my Acoustic B200 single-15", which gets plenty of fuzzy highs (maybe it would help if I posted some clips)...but when the tweeter is switched to 'on,' all the highs just come through the tweeter and it sounds bad. Tweeter 'off,' it's fuzzy heaven. Hmm. Disappointing.

Also, as I read more (this can be confirmed with pics when I get them) it seems that my Avatar has a first order highpass (remember this is NOT the newest Avatar bass cab, which has a different crossover...Mylar if I remember correctly)...which means that the drivers are NOT getting the full range signal. So I might be able to help my situation at least a little by wiring direct-to-jack...correct?
 
#7
Lynwood James said:
Is this simply characteristic of the Avatar drivers?
Click to expand...
Most cabs have a very wide hole between where the woofers leave off and the tweeters start in.
The crossover order makes no difference, it's the crossover frequency that counts. If the Avatar crossover was at, say, 1kHz, then bypassing it and running the woofers direct to the jack would get better highs from the woofers, but it isn't.
 
#10
Surely a 10" speaker might have a -20dB response at 5k, but that's still enough that you'll hear some fizz in your fuzz! Especially if you're in front of the cab somewhere.

Some 10's will work better than others in your suggested full range application. It is probably worth enquiring as to what speakers are in your cab, or just do as you propose and cut the crossover out of the circuit altogether.

One word of caution: in a cab that's intended as a 2-way, you're more likely to have 10's that lack mids and treble than 10's that can extend, say, as high as a decent electric guitar cab. And this is I think what you're after - the guitar cab works with fuzz because of its roll off of any treble over about (say) 6k, unlike bass cabs whose tweeters take their response up to 15k or more, with the result of them sounding horrible with distortion. Check out the Berg NV610 for a cab that's engineered as a 1-way bass cab if you want to read about a "best of breed" example.
 
#11
David1234 said:
Surely a 10" speaker might have a -20dB response at 5k, but that's still enough that you'll hear some fizz in your fuzz! Especially if you're in front of the cab somewhere.

Some 10's will work better than others in your suggested full range application. It is probably worth enquiring as to what speakers are in your cab, or just do as you propose and cut the crossover out of the circuit altogether.

One word of caution: in a cab that's intended as a 2-way, you're more likely to have 10's that lack mids and treble than 10's that can extend, say, as high as a decent electric guitar cab. And this is I think what you're after - the guitar cab works with fuzz because of its roll off of any treble over about (say) 6k, unlike bass cabs whose tweeters take their response up to 15k or more, with the result of them sounding horrible with distortion. Check out the Berg NV610 for a cab that's engineered as a 1-way bass cab if you want to read about a "best of breed" example.
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Thanks for posting! I was beginning to think that I was completely crazy. My cab has the Avatar version of the old Eminence Deltalite II's, to the best of my knowledge (haven't popped any of them out yet though). While I never was able to find any stats for this specific driver, it seemed to me from my limited knowledge that these drivers would produce *enough* high-end to get that fuzz tone.

Sad as this is, I don't actually know what a two way cab is...quick forum search did not help. Fill me in?

I think in the ideal world, if I was rich, I'd probably play with a separate guitar amp and then split the signal via stereo chorus or Ric-O-Sound or something like that (I play 'normal' bass as well, but I do like some zany fuzz stuff). That would create the full-wall-of-sound for my guitarless/noisier projects. So I don't really have enough money (or willpower) to get something like a Berg, and I feel like if you're just trying to create some noise, buying such a high-end cab seems like overkill (though it no doubt would sound better).

Pics to come a little later
 
#12
#13
Replacing the Avatar horn with one crossed at around 2 to 2.5khz would be pretty solid I think. A number of people have done mods like this IIRC to this and similar 4x10 cabs to improve top end response.
 
#14
Well than I guess I unfortunately have a two-way cab.

here's the specs on the DeltaliteII 2510

http://www.eminence-speaker.com/proa...0&SUB_CAT_ID=3

and the pdf file:
http://www.eminence-speaker.com/pdf/deltaliteII2510.pdf
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Those are for stock Eminence Deltalite II's, whereas mine has the ones that were customized for Avatar. Probably not that much different though.

The site says that the cap on the 'useful' range of the Deltalite II's is around 4k, but when I took a look at the pdf it looks like it is still fairly loud at 5k (certainly enough for me to hear it) and well beyond that. Am I reading the graph right?
 
#15
rpsands said:
Replacing the Avatar horn with one crossed at around 2 to 2.5khz would be pretty solid I think. A number of people have done mods like this IIRC to this and similar 4x10 cabs to improve top end response.
Click to expand...
Not a good idea if he wants to run dirty. Clipping through a tweeter sounds bad, that's probably why he runs with the tweeter turned down. What he needs is mids from 2kHz to 5kHz, which his cab can't give. What he doesn't need is extending the range of the tweeter lower, because it would still sound nasty above 5kHz.
The site says that the cap on the 'useful' range of the Deltalite II's is around 4k, but when I took a look at the pdf it looks like it is still fairly loud at 5k (certainly enough for me to hear it) and well beyond that. Am I reading the graph right?
Click to expand...
Compare that graph to that for a guitar driver like the Legend 10516. The Legend is 102dB at 5kHz, the 2510 92dB at 5kHz. In laymen's terms that's like 100 watts compared to 10.
You can't use a guitar driver, it won't handle the low end. A midrange driver instead of a tweeter is the answer, and frankly how bass cabs should be, but for the most part are not, made.
 
#16
I am the former owner of that cab. It is from circa 2007 and equipped with Deltalite 1 speakers manufactured for Dave with a longer x-max and a solid dustcap. It has a high pass filter on the horn and no filter on the woofers. You can build a crossover with a lower crossover point and higher roll off, which is what I ended up doing with my Avatar 212. It does help smooth out the sound and isn't too expensive or difficult to do, but I never used distortion so I cant really say if it will help with that.
 
#17
Compare that graph to that for a guitar driver like the Legend 10516. The Legend is 102dB at 5kHz, the 2510 92dB at 5kHz. In laymen's terms that's like 100 watts compared to 10.
You can't use a guitar driver, it won't handle the low end. A midrange driver instead of a tweeter is the answer, and frankly how bass cabs should be, but for the most part are not, made.
Click to expand...
Just theoretically, could one do a high pass over to guitar drivers? I've also heard of people using PA/monitor speakers, might that work? I don't really have plans to DO either of those things, I'm just curious.

I am the former owner of that cab. It is from circa 2007 and equipped with Deltalite 1 speakers manufactured for Dave with a longer x-max and a solid dustcap. It has a high pass filter on the horn and no filter on the woofers. You can build a crossover with a lower crossover point and higher roll off, which is what I ended up doing with my Avatar 212. It does help smooth out the sound and isn't too expensive or difficult to do, but I never used distortion so I cant really say if it will help with that.
Click to expand...
Feedback for that on its way as well. Can't seem to find a PDF for the Deltalite 1...been poking around the Eminence site for some time. I'll keep at it though.

So if I understand correctly, the woofers are running Full Range, as bobcruz said in his post...meaning that wiring the speakers direct-to-jack Will Not give me any highs above the crossover point coming through the speakers. And furthermore, from a sound standpoint, there is no difference wiring the speakers direct to jack, and just leaving everything the way it is with the tweeter dialed to off?

EDIT: Found a PDF for the Deltalite on a random site, but it still doesn't have a graph. The estimates indicate that it has even less top-end response than the Deltalite II's
 
#19
Picture of the crossover/highpass assembly. Seems simple enough. Seems like the thread is concluding that removing the tweeter won't help anything, but if it turns out that removing the tweeter will help, I'd love to know where the best places to desolder are.
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