You Don't Know What 4 is?????

[OOD]

I had a similar problem once, a long time ago. Guitar player had no clue about theory and no ear - he'd sometimes play a major chord when it was supposed to be minor and couldn't tell something was off.

"What chord are you playing?"

"I'm playing a G."

"Yeah, but you've got a capo there. What key are we doing this in?"

(Unsure where to put the capo, tries to remember where it was last time, asks others). After a while:

"Ah, got it. It's there."

"So, what's the key?"

"It's a G chord."

"Yeah man, but you've got a capo on there, it's not really a G chord anymore."

"No man, look at my fingers: It's a G."

"Dude, I'm not interested in how you arrange your fingers on the neck, I want to know WHAT CHORD IS GOING TO COME OUT OF YOUR AMP!"

"...I'm playing a G."

I felt like I was caught in the classic "Dave?/Dave's not here." loop.

Annoying but not so bad. Just transpose up the fret number the capo is on, unless they are down tuned and didn’t tell me. I might suck at guitar but learning it has at least helped me identify what a less knowledgeable guitarist is doing.

Whats rough is when they tell you a key and it’s completely wrong.

 

[OOD]

I worked with a singer that if you asked her what key a song was in, she'd say C. No matter the song, and they were never in C.

This is why my favorite phrase is “I don’t know”. It shows way more intelligence then pretending you do know.

 

[Koshchei]

I've been with this new group for a couple of months. I've been perplexed by they way they refer to the they are playing in. They down-tune to Eb - not uncommon, but not really my cup of tea. They refer to that as -1. The guitar player (acoustic and front man) uses a capo, so capo off is -1 capo on first fret is 0, second fret is +1, etc. The keyboard uses a feature that allows him to change pitch with an know, so he stays in tune with the guitar. They can never tell me what key they are in. When I ask, I get +1, -1, etc. I have to figure it out by ear. When I would say, "Okay, that can be several different keys. Which is it?", the guitar will show me what shape he is playing.

At our last rehearsal, it got really weird. We were starting to work on a new cover tune. On the turn around, he was going to 4, but both versions I had listened to go to 5. I mentioned it to him and asked if that was a mistake or he preferred doing that way. He gave me a blank stare and asked what I meant by 4.

The guy plays acoustic pretty well and is a good singer and front man, but obviously has no concept of basic theory. I'm not sure I can handle this lack of basic skill for long. How do I communicate with someone who doesn't speak the language.

If nothing else, this anecdote illustrates perfectly the value of music theory and a common musical lexicon for easily exchanging musical ideas.

I mean, I get what they're doing: 0 is standard, since they use a scordatura tuning, but it's limiting to determine everything based on where the capo happens to be. It's better than nothing, but not by much - how do they communicate mid-song modulations, relative keys, tonal centres, key changes, etc?

The keyboardist is probably the most screwed though, since he's playing everything in C major.

 

[BarfanyShart]

Making up there own language is annoying. The saving grace here is that you can always see the guitarist's hands. I've gotten by in a lot of bands by looking at guitarist's hands. The keyboardist with digital transposition.... that's just impossible to deal with.

I try not to get down on people for not knowing as much theory as me. I got a degree in Composition, so I know too much theory, and nobody else really needs to hear about it. If I'm playing bass, they just need me to find those bass notes and thump them out.

 

[1958Bassman]

I had a similar problem once, a long time ago. Guitar player had no clue about theory and no ear - he'd sometimes play a major chord when it was supposed to be minor and couldn't tell something was off.

"What chord are you playing?"

"I'm playing a G."

"Yeah, but you've got a capo there. What key are we doing this in?"

(Unsure where to put the capo, tries to remember where it was last time, asks others). After a while:

"Ah, got it. It's there."

"So, what's the key?"

"It's a G chord."

"Yeah man, but you've got a capo on there, it's not really a G chord anymore."

"No man, look at my fingers: It's a G."

"Dude, I'm not interested in how you arrange your fingers on the neck, I want to know WHAT CHORD IS GOING TO COME OUT OF YOUR AMP!"

"...I'm playing a G."

I felt like I was caught in the classic "Dave?/Dave's not here." loop.

I think I would give up.

I visited some friends in PHX and he was in an informal band. They got together when I was there, but I wasn't playing because I didn't want to force my way in. I saw that the guitar player used a capo at the first fret for everything, so I asked why. He didn't really have a good reason, just that he preferred using it, so I asked about the fret markers, how he could find his way to the correct upper frets, etc and he asked if I play, then said "Well, grab a guitar!". We played for close to two hours, including one song my friend needed to listen to beforehand and when we played it, the guy asked "You know that one? How did you know where everything is?", so I said "I only heard it when Phil played the YouTube video before you guys showed up and the fret markers work pretty well without a capo.".

 

[Dirk Diggler]

You'd have better luck trying to understand their language unless you want to teach them all theory.
Just another way to transpose, actually seems fairly simple and since they only alter by a step or 2 it's cake to figure out.

Also having a low b string will take the tuning stuff out of your worries.

 

[tb-player]

If you like the gig, use your ear and make it work. That’s what a good sideman does.

I play with a guy who is a great songwriter & singer. He doesn’t know theory and loves his capo. I genuinely like him and his music. His tunes are enjoyable and it’s a great hang. So, because I value the scene, I’ve figured out ways to communicate with him that works for us both.

Quite a few local players don’t know theory. For someone to walk away for that reason doesn’t serve the music, just their own ego.

 

[smtp4me]

I've been with this new group for a couple of months. I've been perplexed by they way they refer to the they are playing in. They down-tune to Eb - not uncommon, but not really my cup of tea. They refer to that as -1. The guitar player (acoustic and front man) uses a capo, so capo off is -1 capo on first fret is 0, second fret is +1, etc. The keyboard uses a feature that allows him to change pitch with an know, so he stays in tune with the guitar. They can never tell me what key they are in. When I ask, I get +1, -1, etc. I have to figure it out by ear. When I would say, "Okay, that can be several different keys. Which is it?", the guitar will show me what shape he is playing.

At our last rehearsal, it got really weird. We were starting to work on a new cover tune. On the turn around, he was going to 4, but both versions I had listened to go to 5. I mentioned it to him and asked if that was a mistake or he preferred doing that way. He gave me a blank stare and asked what I meant by 4.

The guy plays acoustic pretty well and is a good singer and front man, but obviously has no concept of basic theory. I'm not sure I can handle this lack of basic skill for long. How do I communicate with someone who doesn't speak the language.

This is a perfect example of why I personally believe that learning theory is so important. Is it absolutely necessary to be a theory expert to play? Of course not. But having a common language is very necessary in a group. Sounds like you have a four-piece band. Imagine if each of them spoke a different language, and only one each - one speaks English, the other French, the other Spanish, the other German... It is not out of bounds to ask that everyone have a basic understanding of one common language.

If neither one of them know basic theory (guitarist and keyboardist), then your choice is to stay and acquiesce/use their language, or leave. Unless they are really open to the suggestion that they learn some basic theory.

 

[two fingers]

"The language" is... music.

I am of the strong belief that, if your music is good, it speaks for itself.

You said you have a good ear, so my advice is, just roll with it. Play the song you hear (not the guitarist's verbal description of the song).

That's a neat sentiment. However, I'm not going to play a song incorrectly in order to go with the musical flow. If the chord progression goes to the 4, we're not going to go to the 5 because the guitarist doesn't know any better. And we have to have a way of communicating that.

 

[MVE]

I don’t mean to be combative, but the simple answer here is, when he asked, “…what do you mean by the 4?”

you could have just taken a moment to explain it to him.

Everyone always says, “you should be in a band with musicians that are better than you.” well that’s a two-way street.

 

[dalkowski]

They refer to that as -1.

This is where my hair started to hurt.

 

[Mike N]

In bands that detune, it has been my experience that it's easier to keep calling the notes/chords/keys in standard tuning notes. In other words, when you play an open E string, of course it's actually an Eb. But we just call it E for the sake of simplicity.

This is what we do in my band.

 

[lark_z]

Reminds of playing with a friend in college. We're sharing a book to see the chord changes, but he doesn't understand what the funny symbols mean, like repeat, coda etc. I did a lot of pointing and screaming "go back to the start". LOL.

 

[JRA]

The guy plays acoustic pretty well and is a good singer and front man, but obviously has no concept of basic theory. I'm not sure I can handle this lack of basic skill for long. How do I communicate with someone who doesn't speak the language?

- if they are talented players (e.g., savants) = roll with it: you're lucky to be there! --- get off your high-horse!
- if their talents are little-to-none = avoid it: why are you there? --- no high-horse needed!
- if they're somewhere in between, but 'salvageable = teach them how to communicate with you! --- no high-horse needed!

IME: it was always easy to figure out any "new language" that the 'uneducated' might have brought to the game. but "uneducated" never meant "talentless" in those bands in which i was lucky enough to be a part!

good luck with your project!

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

I have a personal threshold -- I'm not sure how to strictly define it, but I know instantly when it's been exceeded -- for how much non-standard musical terminology I can tolerate from fellow bandmates before it's not worth my time to participate in that band.

Sounds like your guys already exceeded my threshold...and possibly yours.

Think of it this way: How much time would you spend with a group of people who, instead of speaking to one another in the lingua franca, decided to invent their own language from scratch?

True story:
Went into an "auditon" for a top 40 money making, pay rent ,eat food to avoid dying type of gig.

After a little boring small talk I notice the guitar player and drummer are looking at each other playing long notes, drummer playing only cymbals.
Turns out they explained that they where tuning every cymbal on the kit bit tightening or loosing them to the stands.

Picked my stuff and left without even saying a word or making eye contact.

 

[two fingers]

If you like the gig, use your ear and make it work. That’s what a good sideman does.

I play with a guy who is a great songwriter & singer. He doesn’t know theory and loves his capo. I genuinely like him and his music. His tunes are enjoyable and it’s a great hang. So, because I value the scene, I’ve figured out ways to communicate with him that works for us both.

Quite a few local players don’t know theory. For someone to walk away for that reason doesn’t serve the music, just their own ego.

Again, for all originals this is fine. Your dude writes the songs, so, technically, he can't be "wrong".

OP clearly explained that they ran into an issue while rehearsing a COVER SONG. There are two ways to play the chord progression of a cover song - right and wrong. Sure, stylistically you can "make it your own". But you can't just rewrite the chord progression.

If it goes to the 4, it goes to the 4. Playing a 5 in place of a 4 (like the guitarist in the OP's band) wasn't a style choice. It was just wrong. And if you're playing covers, and somebody is playing something wrong, you have to have a way to communicate both what is wrong and how to do it right.

I'm all for getting along. But I'm not going to just accept improper chord changes so that rainbows fly out our butts and bluebirds land on our shoulders and fairies sprinkle us with pixy dust and unicorns bring us tea on a bed of rose pedals. (Although that WOULD be awesome to see.)

 

[Basslice]

They refer to that as -1. The guitar player (acoustic and front man) uses a capo, so capo off is -1 capo on first fret is 0, second fret is +1, etc. The keyboard uses a feature that allows him to change pitch with an know, so he stays in tune with the guitar. They can never tell me what key they are in. When I ask, I get +1, -1, etc. I have to figure it out by ear. When I would say, "Okay, that can be several different keys. Which is it?", the guitar will show me what shape he is playing.

At our last rehearsal, it got really weird. We were starting to work on a new cover tune. On the turn around, he was going to 4, but both versions I had listened to go to 5. I mentioned it to him and asked if that was a mistake or he preferred doing that way. He gave me a blank stare and asked what I meant by 4.

The guy plays acoustic pretty well and is a good singer and front man, but obviously has no concept of basic theory. I'm not sure I can handle this lack of basic skill for long. How do I communicate with someone who doesn't speak the language.

Wow. That is kind've cute in a weird way. In a sense it helps the guitar player and keyboard player get in synch. I recently have been transposing my midi keyboard as a cheat so I can play everything in C.****

Like you say, it is not musical in any way and does not lend itself to discussion about keys, modes, etc. Either they need to out-grow this (perhaps you can teach them the I-VIIs), or if it becomes untenable... you know the answer.

****Edit - these are my own compositions and in major chords when I do this. ****

 

[sleddogn]

when someone yells 4 at practice, i duck, little white ball coming my way...lol

 

[mrcbass]

If the room is otherwise talented and willing to learn, I'd be fine trying to help teach them stuff for ease of communication. Otherwise, it would be torture.

 

[MCS4]

The funny thing to me is that this is totally normal in the original rock/metal scene. Practically every band I've ever played with in those genres ends up developing its own songwriting shorthand due to the lack of a consistent music background among the various players.