You Don't Know What 4 is?????

[MVE]

I still don’t get the -1, 0, +1 thing.

Why isn’t “no capo” the 0?

All I can think of is, maybe the guitar player learned to play on a guitar with a broken nut and had to capo the first fret to make it work.?.?.?

 

[bassliner50]

Musical illiteracy helps no one and makes things much more difficult in any genre.

 

[TNCreature]

I'm self taught, but I know music theory, chord names, key signatures, etc. And can get around a bit on piano, guitar and drums, as well as playing bass.
To a julliard student, I am a dunce. But I play in a rock band. This group has created a language that works for their skill level, which is saying something, even though it is frustrating to you.(me too).
If you have the patience to elevate the common language in the rehearsal room, you might all be happier (show the benefit). But if there is resistance you may want to.move on. Decide if it is worth it.
Good luck!

 

[two fingers]

The funny thing to me is that this is totally normal in the original rock/metal scene. Practically every band I've ever played with in those genres ends up developing its own songwriting shorthand due to the lack of a consistent music background among the various players.

Works perfect for originals when you're writing the songs. There's no format. You're literally creating the format as you go along. When there is a written chord progression (cover songs.... like in the OP) there has to be a way to get everyone on the same page.

 

[two fingers]

Musical illiteracy helps no one and makes things much more difficult in any genre.

They tune down a half step. So he thinks he's starting at -1 when playing open strings.

I'm not saying that's a great way of looking at it. I'm just observing that's how he's doing it.

 

[Nev375]

They say intelligence is basically the ability to learn and adapt to change.

You've got the creative one who has apparently reinvented the wheel here.
Now someone needs to step up and be the smart guy to make it work.

One thing to keep in mind about folks who reinvent wheels.

Don't ever write them off as dumb. True creativity is its own form of genius.
Every band that ever broke new ground and made a name for themselves had at least one of those eccentric little weirdos.

The real question you should ask yourself is do you like what he does?
And do you like it enough to put in the work to learn his strange customs?

 

[SmokinJoe992]

I've been with this new group for a couple of months. I've been perplexed by they way they refer to the they are playing in. They down-tune to Eb - not uncommon, but not really my cup of tea. They refer to that as -1. The guitar player (acoustic and front man) uses a capo, so capo off is -1 capo on first fret is 0, second fret is +1, etc. The keyboard uses a feature that allows him to change pitch with an know, so he stays in tune with the guitar. They can never tell me what key they are in. When I ask, I get +1, -1, etc. I have to figure it out by ear. When I would say, "Okay, that can be several different keys. Which is it?", the guitar will show me what shape he is playing.

At our last rehearsal, it got really weird. We were starting to work on a new cover tune. On the turn around, he was going to 4, but both versions I had listened to go to 5. I mentioned it to him and asked if that was a mistake or he preferred doing that way. He gave me a blank stare and asked what I meant by 4.

The guy plays acoustic pretty well and is a good singer and front man, but obviously has no concept of basic theory. I'm not sure I can handle this lack of basic skill for long. How do I communicate with someone who doesn't speak the language.

It is comforting to hear that I am not the only one things like this happen to.

 

[lfmn16]

I'm done playing with people that don't know the notes on their instruments and don't know basic musical vocabulary. I've done that twice, and even though they were both good guitarists, they were one trick ponies and very difficult to communicate with. I'm not saying you need to be able to analyze a Beethoven symphony, but if thinking that you ought to know the names of the notes you are playing makes me a snob, so be it.

 

[DaDo625]

Stories/threads like this remind me (yet again) how lucky I have been on my Bass playing journey.

Having friends help me get started and insisting that I get a teacher...

Finding a teacher (at the start) who could not only teach/slip in the theory but have you playing songs along with doing drills...who was also the MD for a popular cover band that did 100+ gigs a year (as in - gone every weekend so good thing that we could meet during the week)
I think it was lesson three when he explained: "your job, as the bass player, is to get people out of their chairs and on the the dance floor"
And having him urge me to play with others, go to open mics - leading me to have a regular guitar player jam session - who asked me to join his old band when the singer moved back to town and "they put the band back together"

We all speak the same language - this comes in when we are working out starts, stops, endings...saving time and energy.

I'm an old Dog learning a new trick (Bass) and I can't imagine doing this without having a basic common language...
With it - the level of fun is pretty amazing...

When you have only been playing for four or five months (try to remember...) and you get on stage full of strangers at an open mic and the BL calls out: "Blues, quick change, A..." and the drummer counts in and you know what to do...
it's like you invented fire...

 

[nickpc]

One cast of the Praise band I'm in has an acoustic guitarist who doesn't know theory and uses a capo and an electric guitarist who doesn't know theory and doesn't use a capo. Both very talented players, and very smart guys, just no theory knowledge. The fun conversations of "What are you playing there?" - "G minor" - "That doesn't sound like G!" - "Then I don't know what it is, I call it G minor" got the the point where I would answer based on how the person asking played, and they started just asking me directly.

G minor with the capo on 2 is A minor. It's not that hard, but neither of them could translate live.

I kind of like the -1, 0, +1 thing - I would be able to follow that pretty easily. But it's not the common way to communicate musically.

 

[LBS-bass]

Guitar players are the WORST

I think many of them learn to play using tab, which creates all sorts of problems. Capo at the first fret, showing a particular chord shape, well... you can know the correct chord is whatever that shape is, but transposed up by a half step. You can know this even if the guitarist doesn't know it. But yeah, it's a pain.

I will never, ever understand why some people are resistant to knowledge.

Oftentimes it isn't that. For someone with a really good ear, their skill level may be significant but their amount of formal training may be very small. They may not be resistant so much as it is that no one ever took the time to teach them anything and they always "got by" on their ear skill.

I was kind of like that in the beginning but I was lucky to work with someone early who was patient enough to give me some basic instruction, and I was also willing ask him things. I'm still not highly educated when it comes to theory but you do learn enough over time to communicate properly and understand what to do when someone asks you for something. But yes there are some people who pride themselves on their lack of education, which is just silly.

 

[drumvsbass]

I once got into an argument with someone who claimed the guitarists in my band must have university level theory knowledge to play the music we were playing... They didn't. The person didn't believe me. I told him that I was the bassist in the band for 10 years and we never talked time signatures or keys of anything. Theory isn't the only way to talk about music.
This was recorded live off the floor.

 

[coy garcia]

I have a singer I've worked with since late 80's who doesn't speak the language. When he says something either the guitar player or I translate what he means to the rest. Easy peesy.

 

[Pings Bass]

It's amazing to me people think they can play music without knowing anything about music. Which... is true for a lot of rock, I suppose. You can get by on guitar with a few barre chord shapes and pocketful of pentatonic minor licks.

 

[turf3]

Actually I use a capo constantly when I play guitar - it allows me to get away with my pitifully inadequate guitar skills. Song's in Bb? No prob - just let me slide the "cheater" up here and I'll play it like it was in A.

I will say that there seems to be a strong oppositional-defiant stance amongst many - usually guitarists, usually totally self-taught - that keeps them from spending a dozen hours or less to understand basic stuff like I, IV, V chords in different keys. They'll spend six weeks using every minute of spare time to learn one particular run in one particular intro of one song - but figure out how to communicate at a basic level? No time for that.

And then they insist you can't start the song till they play that exact introduction - except they STILL can't get it up to tempo or play it in time so you either wait for them to start and stop it ten times before you can get on with the song, or else you're never quite clear when the hell the song has started.

And don't get me started on the people who think that if you're playing at 140 bpm in two, and you go to 100 bpm playing in four, you've "speeded up".

As a bass player I know I've been asked a lot in jam circles things like "I like to do this song in F, is that OK for you?" Fortunately I just say "Yeah, they're all the same on this thing".

 

[bass12]

Think of the confusion that could have been avoided if you’d simply called out “IV” instead of “4”!

 

[LBS-bass]

I still don’t get the -1, 0, +1 thing.

Why isn’t “no capo” the 0?

All I can think of is, maybe the guitar player learned to play on a guitar with a broken nut and had to capo the first fret to make it work.?.?.?

Because they are starting out downtuned by a half step. If they were in standard tuning, no capo would be zero.

 

[azureblue]

Gives me a headache - I had a horn band - I was writing the charts for 4 ( Bb, Bb, C and Eb) horns. The guitar player was great but played by ear. He knew the Nashville number system, and could find notes on the fretboard. He like to work little clips of the horn parts into his parts, so I would have to read off the Bb chart and tell it to him in concert. Then the horn players and piano guy would get upset because they couldn't keep up when I was switching between Bb and concert. Piano player could read verbatim and chord charts, but couldn't comprehend why horns played in different keys. Horn players weren't the best. So I was the translator. I could relate to the horn players in their keys and chords, but I had to tell the piano and guitar player to not listen to me, because they would get all confused when I was telling the bari player (even thought the chords were on his chart), what the chords were. I finally got the guitar player to talking with me via the number system, the horn players to understand that I talked to them in their keys, and the piano player ignore everything and just play what was on his chart. The singer, however, she knew music very well, and could rattle off the names of the notes she was singing, and help de- confuse the members when I was talking in horn keys, but they were in concert. Oh, yeah, since we were in flat keys a lot, the guitar player used a de- tuned guitar on some songs. Eventually, the band learned to not listen to me unless I was speaking to them. But the guitar player picked up all of this transposition stuff. Good on him..
The moral is, unless you have a band of well trained players, you will have to establish a common musical language. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes not so much and working n songs becomes a nightmare.

 

[turf3]

Then the horn players and piano guy would get upset because they couldn't keep up when I was switching between Bb and concert. Piano player could read verbatim and chord charts, but couldn't comprehend why horns played in different keys. Horn players weren't the best.

Need better horn players. Don't present yourself as a working horn player unless you can work in concert key or transposed key. Tain't that difficult. No, I'm not going to sightread and transpose at sight a Charlie Parker solo at tempo, but you're probably talking about rock and roll or R&B. It's not fair to expect piano players to work from horn charts but it is fair (and totally normal) to expect horn players to work from concert key charts, at least once you start playing for money.

 

[DirtDog]

You think talking harmony with other less-well-trained musicians is difficult, try talking rhythm with them!

 

[DJ Bebop]

I will never, ever understand why some people are resistant to knowledge.

Because knowledge may reveal one has been wrong about something. And some folks would rather just be wrong than to know they are wrong and need to make changes to be right!