Double Bass Young students - need advice

[Gustavus]

Hello fellow bass players !
This is my first post so don't go too hard on me
So, recently I got a job at elementary/high school. I just finished my classical studies and got a Master's in September. Now I face my first real challenge and experience in teaching. I got 7 students, 4 of those are 8-12 years old . Since I started dB at 14, I don't have experience in teaching such young musicians.
I'm looking for materials,well-known compositions adapted for bass, exercises, advices in approach etc. Most of them have some trouble stretching their fingers in 1st position, especially the distance between 1st and 2nd fingers. Their former teacher is not available for any questions so I'm kinda left on my own..
Thank you in advance, this forum was already very helpful and I appreciate all the effort you people put into sharing knowledge and advices.

Gustav

 

[Steve Freides]

@gustav, the first thing you'll want to look into is having a properly sized instrument for each student. A 1/4 or even 1/8 size would likely be appropriate for an 8-year-old. By around age 10, 1/4 size seems to fit most.

-S-

 

[Gustavus]

@gustav, the first thing you'll want to look into is having a properly sized instrument for each student. A 1/4 or even 1/8 size would likely be appropriate for an 8-year-old. By around age 10, 1/4 size seems to fit most.

-S-

There is a bass that is appropriate,nobody seems to struggle with it, I always try to make sure their LH is as relaxed as possible... Maybe I should sit them down in order to fix LH without having to worry about balancing the bass?

 

[Steve Freides]

@Gustavus, I would go in the other direction - talk to them about balancing the bass at every lesson.

-S-

 

[neilG]

Not only size, but the "action" needs to be correct. It should be super easy to press the strings down. If not, get that fixed.

 

[Wasnex]

@Gustavus, I would go in the other direction - talk to them about balancing the bass at every lesson.

-S-

When I started on string bass, I learned to play sitting like everyone else in the class. This was not forced on me, it was a choice. For some reason I moved away from sitting; I think it was because someone took the stools away.

Years later after I become a pro, I returned primarily to playing while sitting. Rehearsals and concerts can run very long, so my feet really appreciated this. Unfortunately since I had not practiced playing in a seated position for many years, it took an extended time to get comfortable. But once I did, I found my technique was free to play the instrument rather than worry about balancing it. Although a part of me was resistant to change, I became a much better player by getting comfortable playing in the seated position again.

AFAIK, most orchestral bass sections sit, so if appropriate stools are available I suggest using them. There is no reason to treat bassists like second class citizens and make them stand while everyone else enjoys the comfort of a seat. YMMV

If you are interested, the K.C. Strings Bass Stool/Stand worked really well for me, but it may not work well for you. I am 5'9" with a 30" inseam, so obviously it's too big for little kids .
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[Steve Freides]

When I started on string bass, I learned to play sitting like everyone else in the class. This was not forced on me, it was a choice. For some reason I moved away from sitting; I think it was because someone took the stools away.

I pretty much don't teach people to play seated. There are precedents for me in other musical things, e.g., every orchestral trumpet player spends more time on his C trumpet than on his Bb, but all of them started out on a Bb trumpet and didn't pick up the C until high school at the earliest, many only in college, some not even until their junior year of college. Why? The longer you play on the Bb trumpet, the better off you are in the long run. The C trumpet is easier in many ways but the Bb trumpet is the foundation.

For me as a bass teacher, learning to play standing is important. I talk to my students, sometimes using phrases that take some explaining like, "the bass is your dance partner." I want all my students to be able to stand with the bass and bow open strings without needing to hold it with their left hand at all. It's a real foundational thing. And when they can do that, if they want to play seated, it's fine with me.

I'm sure many of you can't stand with the bass and bow open strings without having your left hand on the bass, and some of you undoubtedly can play rings around me. I'm OK with that - plenty of folks don't go about lots of things in life the way I do, but as teacher, teaching what you feel are the basics is important, and never forgetting to always try to be the best you can be at the basics is important to me as a player across the different instruments I play. Just my opinion and your mileage may vary and all that. In my studio, everyone learns to play standing first.

-S-

 

[Adam Booker]

As far as repertoire is concerned, Vance Progressive Repertoire is aces for that age group. Starting younger hands at the second partial is so much more comfortable for little hands. After they have the basics of hand shape down, I throw in some Simandl and other studies.
Sitting vs. standing is about as controversial a topic as French vs. German bow used to be. Pros and cons to each, imho.

 

[Steve Freides]

Vance reflects Rabbath, if memory serves, so it would certainly not be an option for me.

Sitting vs. standing is about as controversial a topic as French vs. German bow used to be. Pros and cons to each, imho.

There's an important difference, IMHO. Everyone should learn to play standing, as in my trumpet analogy. After that, I agree 100% that there is no better or worse between the two.

-S-

 

[clclark]

Vance reflects Rabbath, if memory serves, so it would certainly not be an option for me.

Yes, it does, but I learned it after time in Simandl. It doesn't require Rabbath and can easily be played with Simandl fingerings (at least the first book, can't remember much about the later ones). It's also much more musical earlier on.

 

[Don Kasper]

advices in approach

Regarding the sitting/standing issue - with very short students it may be difficult to find appropriate stools/seats for them to use - both feet should be on the ground, ideally, (cello-like, but taller.)
I've been standing for 40+ years after starting out at the age of 18 while sitting. I would not complicate the "dance of standing" by having new students try to bow the open strings WITHOUT the left arm/hand (somehow) supporting the bass. Posture, and Proximity to the bass, is much more important - feet apart about shoulder width, weight evenly distributed - NO BENT LEFT LEG touching the back of the bass!! (sorry for shouting!), the edge of the upper bout of the back of the bass touching the side of the stomach/lower torso. The instrument should be leaning back, slightly, and into the student - the left arm/hand can rest lightly on the upper bout to gently support the bass and keep it from falling, if the open strings are to be bowed.
Just my $0.03.
Good Luck and Thank You.

 

[Steve Freides]

NO BENT LEFT LEG touching the back of the bass!! (sorry for shouting!)

But this is a good way to balance for many people. It's how I start them, then I encourage experimenting on their own at home to find what works best for them. I suggest the corner of the bass rest just inside that bony protuberance of the hip (it's called the ASIS).

Body composition is, for sure, an issue. I'm built more or less like many of my students, 5'7" (they say - I think 5'6" is closer) and 150 lbs.

-S-

 

[Don Kasper]

plenty of folks don't go about lots of things in life the way I do,

It's how I start them

Well, there you have it.
Thanks, Steve.

 

[Wasnex]

I want all my students to be able to stand with the bass and bow open strings without needing to hold it with their left hand at all. It's a real foundational thing. And when they can do that, if they want to play seated, it's fine with me.

I am okay with this as stated. I agree that playing standing is an essential part of the pedagogy, but so it playing seated. In no way do I agree that requiring a young bassist to play standing indefinitely will help them develop into a better bassist, so I don't consider the discussion related to Bb trumpet relevant. It's not a right of passage.

I found playing standing restricted my development slightly, and learning to play sitting allowed me to become a more proficient player. But there are times when I still play standing, mostly in big band. It has been a very long time since I tried any bowing while standing, and to be honest I found it a bit challenging...I haven't practiced this way for decades. The difference between standing and sitting significantly changes the way the body interfaces with the instrument, so I would advocate focusing on whichever technique is most useful; I think it's clear my choice is sitting.

I believe some will argue that playing seated restricts the player's reach into the higher range of the instrument. My observation is string bass soloist seem to prefer to play standing, but this may be a matter of showmanship and staging. I can't say how playing sitting restricts playing at the extreme range of the instrument as I am not a soloist. I suspect the choice of instrument would be an important factor, but I never had any trouble reaching into thumb position on a 7/8 Lakeburg Baer, which had unusually deep ribs.

As a counter argument, I attended a concert in Europe that featured a chamber orchestra composed of nothing but string bass players. I believe there were about 18-20 bassist total, and most of them were solo caliber. To cover the viola and violin parts, they used a technique where they stopped the strings with the thumb, and then played the melody using harmonics. They played all the way past the end of the finger board and everyone played sitting.

As far as mastering both standing and sitting. There are only so many hours in the day and the body can only endure so much, so choices have to be made; I.E. you can't do everything. If I were a symphonic level player, maybe I would have placed more emphasize on maintaining equal skill regardless of whether I am playing standing or sitting. My job required me to sing, and switch between bass guitar and electric upright; so it was necessary to prioritize accordingly.

See the first video and 0:39 of the second video. I believe the high parts in the string bass chamber orchestra basically integrated natural and artificial harmonics, which sort of blows my mind.

 

[Scott Lynch]

My $0.02 comes from being a few years in as an elementary band/orchestra director. I work with 4th and 5th grade students (~9-10 years old).

A handful of things are really important to me when working with beginners. Students should, first and foremost, learn to play music and not just exercises. Just as important is the development of good technique habits. Having them learn to read is necessary if they will continue on in middle/high school in my district but I preface just about anything a student sees in notation with something to listen to. Seeing good technique, not just hearing descriptions of it, is also essential. In short, I play for them and with them often.

Without advocating too much for one particular pedagogical track (ex. Simandl vs. Rabbath), I will say that you have to 'pick your battles', so to speak, with younger students. Every kid that walks through your door is in a different state of aural, tactile/kinesthetic and cognitive readiness and you have to teach to that more than any particular method.

For example: Is learning to play both seated and standing important? Sure. Some students, especially those with good tactile awareness, may take to both positions right away. But if you're dead set on having every beginner bassist learn to start playing in a standing position, the difficulty of trying to balance the bass, use good bow technique and good left hand/arm shape might be overwhelming for some. Taking one variable out of the the equation, such as letting the bass rest in a comfortable seated position, may make the difference between a successful first few lessons or the student thinking "this is too challenging".

To me, if there's any dogma worth following, it's this: we only get to teach them if they keep showing up.

 

[Wasnex]

My $0.02 comes from being a few years in as an elementary band/orchestra director. I work with 4th and 5th grade students (~9-10 years old).

A handful of things are really important to me when working with beginners. Students should, first and foremost, learn to play music and not just exercises. Just as important is the development of good technique habits. Having them learn to read is necessary if they will continue on in middle/high school in my district but I preface just about anything a student sees in notation with something to listen to. Seeing good technique, not just hearing descriptions of it, is also essential. In short, I play for them and with them often.

Without advocating too much for one particular pedagogical track (ex. Simandl vs. Rabbath), I will say that you have to 'pick your battles', so to speak, with younger students. Every kid that walks through your door is in a different state of aural, tactile/kinesthetic and cognitive readiness and you have to teach to that more than any particular method.

For example: Is learning to play both seated and standing important? Sure. Some students, especially those with good tactile awareness, may take to both positions right away. But if you're dead set on having every beginner bassist learn to start playing in a standing position, the difficulty of trying to balance the bass, use good bow technique and good left hand/arm shape might be overwhelming for some. Taking one variable out of the the equation, such as letting the bass rest in a comfortable seated position, may make the difference between a successful first few lessons or the student thinking "this is too challenging".

To me, if there's any dogma worth following, it's this: we only get to teach them if they keep showing up.

Ultimately I think this is the correct approach. I was taught how to play standing, but allowed to play sitting. It didn't last long because there was competition for the stools from the band kids, and the stools eventually disappeared. Over the long run I found that sitting allowed me to develop better technique, but @Don Kasper seems pretty dedicated to playing standing. Who am I to tell him he is wrong?

I don't think sitting made a huge difference in my technical development, but it did make a difference. Sitting did make a huge difference on my long term comfort level. My feet and lower back do not cope well with long periods of standing. This become more important after I became a professional. It is a bit of an extra hassle to have to cart around a stool, but IMHO it's worth it.

Throughout my development I was exposed to lots of different techniques and approaches. Some of them worked for me and some did not. I think its a good idea to try lots of different things to see what fits. You learn from all of it. If you are exclusively a performer, you may keep what works and discard the rest. If you teach, make a mental note of the techniques you discard. IMHO, the best teachers tend to be flexible and provide a comprehensive range of techniques rather than just the ones they prefer. This is the approach my last instructor used. Also a true master may vary some playing techniques depending on circumstances.

 

[Adam Booker]

To me, if there's any dogma worth following, it's this: we only get to teach them if they keep showing up.

Amen.

 

[Steve Freides]

I am okay with this as stated. I agree that playing standing is an essential part of the pedagogy, but so it playing seated. In no way do I agree that requiring a young bassist to play standing indefinitely will help them develop into a better bassist, so I don't consider the discussion related to Bb trumpet relevant. It's not a right of passage.

I don't agree, and I also feel like you've misstated my position a little. I didn't suggest "requiring a young bassist to play standing indefinitely" but rather that they play standing until they're able to play standing well. I do consider it a right of passage in that it's a thing I want all my students to be able to do.

My feet and lower back do not cope well with long periods of standing.

There's a whole other discussion we could have on this subject. We in Western societies, now more than ever, spend way too much time sitting on our arses and it's just not good for us. For me, that's one of the reasons I choose to continue to play standing and not sitting - I sit enough already. The devil is in the doseage in most things - too much standing, if you haven't gotten acclimated to it in a gradual way - I agree that it could and would have a negative impact on your playing.

Throughout my development I was exposed to lots of different techniques and approaches. Some of them worked for me and some did not. I think its a good idea to try lots of different things to see what fits. You learn from all of it. If you are exclusively a performer, you may keep what works and discard the rest. If you teach, make a mental note of the techniques you discard. IMHO, the best teachers tend to be flexible and provide a comprehensive range of techniques rather than just the ones they prefer. This is the approach my last instructor used. Also a true master may vary some playing techniques depending on circumstances.

The longer I teach, the less dogmatic I become in how I go about it, but I still teach all my bass students to play standing. I don't think "what fits" is as simple as trying things and deciding whether or not they fit. And in this, I don't think "flexible" is necessarily a good guideline in all things for a teacher - one should be flexible in some things, not flexible in others. I had a conversation with one of my teachers in college once where I looked at him and said, "Is your way here really better than mine?" And he said, "Maybe, and maybe not, but it's important for your development that you learn to do it my way for now so that you fully understand my approach." And I agree with that.

My $0.02 comes from being a few years in as an elementary band/orchestra director. I work with 4th and 5th grade students (~9-10 years old).

I'm a private teacher but I see a fair amount of this age student, too.

To me, if there's any dogma worth following, it's this: we only get to teach them if they keep showing up.

Yes, but it's also OK to draw a line somewhere. I've had prospective students, who I didn't accept, who said the only way they'd take lessons with me was if I taught them without teaching them to read music.

if you're dead set on having every beginner bassist learn to start playing in a standing position, the difficulty of trying to balance the bass, use good bow technique and good left hand/arm shape might be overwhelming for some. Taking one variable out of the the equation, such as letting the bass rest in a comfortable seated position, may make the difference between a successful first few lessons or the student thinking "this is too challenging".

Agreed, but in my actual teaching, finding that good balance point with the bass isn't something I require, it's something I encourage, along with the other things you mention - good bow technique, good left hand technique. The student is going to play when all these things are less than ideal, of course. But one of my regular lines to my students is, "If you can't do this, it's my fault" and I believe that. It's my job to structure the situation so that each week presents an achievable challenge.

-S-

 

[Wasnex]

I didn't suggest "requiring a young bassist to play standing indefinitely" but rather that they play standing until they're able to play standing well. I do consider it a right of passage in that it's a thing I want all my students to be able to do.

Do you also require all of your bass students to learn how to play on a stool? It seems both should be addressed to see what is best for the child.

The reality of orchestra rehearsals is the bass players often wait around while the instructor works with the other sections. I can only speak from my own experience, but the time my instructors spent working with the basses was grossly less; so there is a real practical concern here. If your bassists are standing around bored thinking about how much their feet hurt, it's not going to make them love the instrument.

There's a whole other discussion we could have on this subject. We in Western societies, now more than ever, spend way too much time sitting on our arses and it's just not good for us. For me, that's one of the reasons I choose to continue to play standing and not sitting - I sit enough already. The devil is in the doseage in most things - too much standing, if you haven't gotten acclimated to it in a gradual way - I agree that it could and would have a negative impact on your playing.

I am sorry but this is BS and sort of arrogant on your part. Basically since you can easily do something, you erroneously think everyone should be able to do it. Engaging in physical activity is important, but not everybody can or should do the same types of activities. There are scholarly articles that claim too much standing can make your whole body hurt and degrade your mental state.
Now too much standing is bad for us, says study
This may not apply to you, but it definitely applies to me.

I would advise you to avoid judging me unless you have lived in my skin. I regularly go to the gym to work out with weights and do aerobic training, but standing for an extended time is painful and saps me of mental energy and focus. I have had long-term jobs where I stood all day, so it's not a matter of training. When I was in top physical condition it was actually more painful to stand for an hour than to run for an hour. As a military musician I had plenty of opportunities to stand a parade rest for an extended time; one for almost three hours.
FYI, I resisted transitioning to the stool when turned professional. I had played standing for so long that it just felt natural and it took me an extended time to get used to playing sitting down. Honestly at the time I was a better player standing than sitting. I also had to work with my instructor quite a bit to find the right approach. But once it clicked, there was no going back for me.

I frequently had three hours of rehearsals in a given day. On really long days it might extend to five or more hours. Sometimes our concerts extended over three hours as well. Because standing is painful and mental draining for me, it really was a necessity, and the added benefit is it actually expanded my technique.

The longer I teach, the less dogmatic I become in how I go about it, but I still teach all my bass students to play standing. I don't think "what fits" is as simple as trying things and deciding whether or not they fit. And in this, I don't think "flexible" is necessarily a good guideline in all things for a teacher - one should be flexible in some things, not flexible in others. I had a conversation with one of my teachers in college once where I looked at him and said, "Is your way here really better than mine?" And he said, "Maybe, and maybe not, but it's important for your development that you learn to do it my way for now so that you fully understand my approach." And I agree with that.

I don't disagree with this. In order to try out a technique and really understand if it will work for you, you have to live with it for an extended time. As an instructor you are obviously most qualified to teach the techniques you use and excel at. As I mentioned, my last instructor was way more flexible than most, and I really appreciated it. When I struggled with one technique that I had been working on for an extended time, he made the effort to take me down a different path and try a different approach.

As a student you strive to learn from many masters over your life. Some of them will probably be very strict and dogmatic, and you will learn a lot from them, some of which you will treasure and some of which you will discard. But hopefully the first person who teaches you to play bass will be kind and patient, and let's keep in mind we are talking about little kids.

 

[Wasnex]

A more informative article on artificial harmonics for any who are interested. I have only seen this technique used at one concert, and then a whole bunch of players were doing it extremely proficiently, so it totally blew my mind.

Artificial Harmonics: The Basics