Double Bass Young students - need advice

[Sean Riddle]

A more informative article on artificial harmonics for any who are interested. I have only seen this technique used at one concert, and then a whole bunch of players were doing it extremely proficiently, so it totally blew my mind.

Artificial Harmonics: The Basics

Check out Mark Dresser's work and specifically his instructional video "Guts" which is a bible for extended techniques for bass. Compound artificial harmonics take your regular old artificial harmonics even higher by further diving the length of the artificial harmonic in half etc with your middle finger. Gets you to some extremely high sonic territories.

 

[Wasnex]

Check out Mark Dresser's work and specifically his instructional video "Guts" which is a bible for extended techniques for bass. Compound artificial harmonics take your regular old artificial harmonics even higher by further diving the length of the artificial harmonic in half etc with your middle finger. Gets you to some extremely high sonic territories.

I found a short demo of "Guts" on Youtube and Mark Dresser gave a shout out to this guy.


I find this video very cool but also somewhat painful to listen to.

To my unsophisticated pallet this video is perhaps a bit more "traditional" and easier to understand .


The bass chamber orchestra I heard years ago played a lot of standard symphonic repertoire. They may have also played some outside, modern stuff, but don't remember it.

I should probably become proficient in thumb position before I worry about artificial harmonics...or perhaps set my goals on something more modest like learning to play standing up . But this stuff is still very cool .

 

[Matthias Hacker]

I recently had a young adult student who came for only three lessons and then stopped. He did not have motivation anymore. He told me he wanted to play music, while I tried to help him 1. balance the instrument (standing position) 2. get the left elbow, thump and fingers right and 3. play some slides to get the left hand flexible enough. He told me that I would frustrate him and asked me why I´d be so academic... I really tried to make him enjoy little progressions and tried to move on to play some simple lines as soon as possible. I´m still convinced to have it done right or at least as good as I am able to, but he seemed to expect something really different from a teacher, though I still do not know why someone should take lessons if he doesn´t want to learn.

However once the students feels fine and comfortable on the upright and can play and enjoy some nice simple things it´s easy to go on from there. If you get there the most difficult part is done I´d say. An adult should bring his own motivation and understanding, but I wonder how this can be done with a child, how to manage the first steps without frustration? Balancing this doghouse and getting the left hand right is everything but easy for a beginner.

 

[Steve Freides]

If your bassists are standing around bored thinking about how much their feet hurt, it's not going to make them love the instrument.

When I have a long rehearsal, I keep a chair near me and sit when there's time to do so and I want to sit.

I am sorry but this is BS and sort of arrogant on your part. Basically since you can easily do something, you erroneously think everyone should be able to do it.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I didn't say it was easy for me or for anyone else, just that we all ought to do more of it.

Engaging in physical activity is important, but not everybody can or should do the same types of activities. There are scholarly articles that claim too much standing can make your whole body hurt and degrade your mental state.
Now too much standing is bad for us, says study
This may not apply to you, but it definitely applies to me.

<sigh>. I take good care of my body, and as I said, the devil is in the dose. Too much of anything we're not prepared to do isn't good for us. When I don't play pizz for a while and then do, particularly if it's unamplified, I can almost guarantee myself a blister on my right index finger, but let's not extrapolate that into "playing pizz is bad for you." But one could study that and reach that conclusion, just like one could about standing. Most of us in Western societies are woefully out of shape: overweight, weak, and inflexible. Standing to play the bass shouldn't be a physical burden, but you're right, it is. My hope is that my students become stronger from doing it in proper doses over time. See "Hormesis."

I would advise you to avoid judging me unless you have lived in my skin.

And I say the same thing to you - Google me if you're interested.

Thank you for the conversation.

-S-

 

[Wasnex]

And I say the same thing to you - Google me if you're interested.

Thank you for the conversation.

I am sure you are a fine instructor. Have a nice day.

 

[neilG]

I really don't want to doom my students to a life of having to carry a bass AND a stool everywhere. Everyone learns to play standing. It might save their backs in the long run.

 

[Wasnex]

I really don't want to doom my students to a life of having to carry a bass AND a stool everywhere. Everyone learns to play standing. It might save their backs in the long run.

If you want to save them the hassle, tell them to give up bass and play piccolo .

The stool I prefer can be ordered with backpack bag. You won't strain your back lifting it unless you have other problems.

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These guys don't seem to mind sitting, and I am pretty sure it does not limit their technique in any way.

 

[neilG]

I wasn't referring to saving one's back in relation to carrying a stool. I find my back hurts when I sit and play. Hardly ever when I stand. YMMV.

 

[Wasnex]

I wasn't referring to saving one's back in relation to carrying a stool. I find my back hurts when I sit and play. Hardly ever when I stand. YMMV.

We are all definitely different. My lower back has always bothered me when I stand for an extended time. Then again it's not good in some seating positions as well. Sitting on the floor is especially brutal.

I find it important to maintain good posture and spine alignment regardless of whether I am standing or sitting. Getting furniture that fits the body and provides proper support is essential. Probably the best thing I have done is start sleeping with pillows under my legs when I am on my back, and the pillows go between my knees when I am on my sides. For awhile I tried all sorts of core exercises and it didn't really seem to help that much.

The KC Strings stool was the most comfortable bass stool I ever used. Probably a Rock N Sock throne would be my second choice. The pad on the KC stool is wide so you can move around. Also the height was ideal for my body, so my hips were level, instead of one foot up and one foot down. My feet actually rest on the stand rather than the floor. Unfortunately they don't custom fit them to everyone's body.

I am not opposed to everyone learning to play standing, I just think they should also be exposed to playing on a stool. This gives them a chance to determine what works best for their body. Then it's up to the individual to decide whether to use a stool, and if carrying a stool is too much of a hassle or not. No need to for you to carry the weight of dooming anyone to this burden, as IMHO it's ultimately the individual's choice; even if you refuse to teach them.

In reflecting, I had a beat up old wooden stool that I used for awhile when I was in my teens. It was not particularly comfortable. I believe it's still at my parents house supporting a potted plant. That's probably the best use for it.

 

[Steve Freides]

I recently had a young adult student who came for only three lessons and then stopped. He did not have motivation anymore. He told me he wanted to play music, while I tried to help him 1. balance the instrument (standing position) 2. get the left elbow, thump and fingers right and 3. play some slides to get the left hand flexible enough. He told me that I would frustrate him and asked me why I´d be so academic... I really tried to make him enjoy little progressions and tried to move on to play some simple lines as soon as possible. I´m still convinced to have it done right or at least as good as I am able to, but he seemed to expect something really different from a teacher, though I still do not know why someone should take lessons if he doesn´t want to learn.

However once the students feels fine and comfortable on the upright and can play and enjoy some nice simple things it's easy to go on from there. If you get there the most difficult part is done I´d say. An adult should bring his own motivation and understanding, but I wonder how this can be done with a child, how to manage the first steps without frustration? Balancing this doghouse and getting the left hand right is everything but easy for a beginner.

Perhaps the most important lesson I've learned over the years is to _not_ say when I see something that need fixing. Students can't work on more than one or two things at a time.

I'm thinking of a current student - still playing without having figured out how to stand with the bass altogether, but making progress. Still playing out of tune a lot but now can play in tune sometimes - the left hand is tough for this student, so a few times during the lesson, we talk about the left hand, but much of the time, out of tune playing goes by without a comment from me. When a first-string B or second string F# is well in tune, I do point that out with praise.

It's a dance, me and each student, and I have to see how my dance partner is doing before I open my mouth about anything. I know I don't do that all the time but I do really try.

-S-

 

[Steve Freides]

These guys don't seem to mind sitting, and I am pretty sure it does not limit their technique in any way.

No one was suggesting that sitting limits one's technique.

-S-

 

[Steve Freides]

We are all definitely different. My lower back has always bothered me when I stand for an extended time. Then again it's not good in some seating positions as well. Sitting on the floor is especially brutal.

I find it important to maintain good posture and spine alignment regardless of whether I am standing or sitting. Getting furniture that fits the body and provides proper support is essential. Probably the best thing I have done is start sleeping with pillows under my legs when I am on my back, and the pillows go between my knees when I am on my sides. For awhile I tried all sorts of core exercises and it didn't really seem to help that much.

We have bass teachers; we also have body teachers. What you're describing sounds like what's called "anterior pelvic tilt." If you look in my sig file, you'll see a link to a forum - I recommend you join, post what I quoted of your post, and ask for help. Or use the web site to find a trainer near you. Or at least Google "anterior pelvic tilt" and do some reading. This - anterior pelvic tilt site:strongfirst.com - in your Google search box will bring up a number of threads on the forum you might wish to read.

-S-

 

[Wasnex]

We have bass teachers; we also have body teachers. What you're describing sounds like what's called "anterior pelvic tilt." If you look in my sig file, you'll see a link to a forum - I recommend you join, post what I quoted of your post, and ask for help. Or use the web site to find a trainer near you. Or at least Google "anterior pelvic tilt" and do some reading. This - anterior pelvic tilt site:strongfirst.com - in your Google search box will bring up a number of threads on the forum you might wish to read.

-S-

Good call. I'll try some targeted exercises and stretches. Thanks.

 

[Wasnex]

No one was suggesting that sitting limits one's technique.

-S-

It definitely does if the player is not comfortable playing on a stool and does not have a proper approach...and I have inferred this directly in this thread.

It's not clear to me whether you instruct students in proper seated technique or not. I asked if you teach this, and you ignored the question.

This response also seems to indicate students are only given instruction in how to play standing.

I really don't want to doom my students to a life of having to carry a bass AND a stool everywhere. Everyone learns to play standing. It might save their backs in the long run.

I don't really want to argue this any more. I respect your views and your right to teach your curriculum. I don't necessarily agree with all of it of it, but overall I think you are probably a pretty good instructor.

 

[neilG]

We're not arguing, we're discussing. I do not instruct my young students in how to sit on stools for two reasons: I think standing is ergonomically more efficient, especially since all my kids play German bow, (something we haven't discussed yet) and second, they don't have appropriately sized stools at school. These humans are tiny.

Opinions may vary. Do what works for you.

 

[CryingBass]

Amen.

Or said in another way, there is nothing more-dangerous than a bored child.

 

[Wasnex]

We're not arguing, we're discussing.

We could argue about this point as well . I called it arguing because to some degree, we seem to be talking passed each other rather than exchanging ideas. Admittedly I have not been perfect.

I think standing is ergonomically more efficient, especially since all my kids play German bow.

By the way I started with German bow, and I don't see how the bow type is relevant to whether you use a stool or not. Plenty of German bow users play on a stool.

Opinions may vary. Do what works for you.

I believe what works best for me is irrelevant to this thread. It seems each person tends to be fairly polarized on which approach is best, so I would think helping your students find the right approach early would be an aspirational goal.

When I transitioned to bass I had my pick of several crappy instruments and various French and German bows. I tried both bows for awhile, but settled on the German as it was less painful and I could switch back and forth between pizz and arco easier. But at some point, I found I could bow faster with French, so I abandoned the German bow. This was a personal decision, and I am not saying everyone should play French bow.

Lack of equipment is a valid reason for not teaching a method. Hopefully if one of your students brings in a stool you will provide encouragement and guidance. Also, unless the school is totally devoid of percussion players, I suspect there are drum thrones available.

I couldn't find any arco videos, but this 8 year old looks like he is using a regular chair.

Here's an 11 year old on what appears to be a percussion stool.

 

[Steve Freides]

It's not clear to me whether you instruct students in proper seated technique or not. I asked if you teach this, and you ignored the question.

I apologize - I don't remember you asking that. No, I don't teach it. While I'm sure there are ins and outs to doing it well, I've had some students who've told me they play seated once in a while in school, but they never seemed to have any questions about how to do that. Just being completely honest. I've never once told a student I don't think they should play seated, and I've played seated a few times myself, e.g. a rehearsal in someone's band or orchestra room where bass stools were kept. I just put one leg up a on a rung, got comfortable, and that was the end of it. And if a student wanted to sit, and had any difficulties at all with it, I'd suggest they find another teacher.

I'm about to have a few lessons with my own teacher again, who plays seated - I will ask for a primer on the subject, and thank you for the reminder.

-S-

 

[Wasnex]

I apologize - I don't remember you asking that. No, I don't teach it. While I'm sure there are ins and outs to doing it well, I've had some students who've told me they play seated once in a while in school, but they never seemed to have any questions about how to do that. Just being completely honest. I've never once told a student I don't think they should play seated, and I've played seated a few times myself, e.g. a rehearsal in someone's band or orchestra room where bass stools were kept. I just put one leg up a on a rung, got comfortable, and that was the end of it. And if a student wanted to sit, and had any difficulties at all with it, I'd suggest they find another teacher.

I'm about to have a few lessons with my own teacher again, who plays seated - I will ask for a primer on the subject, and thank you for the reminder.

-S-

Perhaps I am just weird, but I find the approach is significantly different between sitting and standing. The physical relationships and angles between the body and bass are all changed subtlety, so the kinesthetics are different and have to be relearned and optimized.

In Junior high I just figured it out for myself as the instructor was a violinist. It took me a few days to find a comfortable sitting position that facilitated good interaction with the instrument. The stools were not ideal, and FYI I think choosing the right stool is essential for anyone who wants to play seating indefinitely. It has to have the right shape and dimensions are it's not going to work with your body.

The last time I transitioned to stool, I had not used one for an extended time and I remember the transition was much more difficult for me. Trust me if it were not for the significant amount of standing my job required and the level of discomfort it entailed, I would have continued as a standing player. At this time I was a full-time performer for the most part, so the majority of my job was music prep and performance. We are talking many, many hours of standing.

During my transition I felt awkward and out of place on the instrument, and my playing was somewhat compromised. I expressed a lot of doubt about continuing, but my instructor offered encouragement and ensured me it was going to be worth the effort.

After about 6-weeks and three lessons it started to click. Once I found home and got really comfortable, there seemed to be more benefits than just pain avoidance. I feel like I have much better access to the instrument and better control when I play sitting.

 

[neilG]

By the way I started with German bow, and I don't see how the bow type is relevant to whether you use a stool or not. Plenty of German bow users play on a stool.

I said "I think...". Yes, I know lots of German bow players play sitting. I do it occasionally. I'm still going to go with saying it's not as ergonomic as the French bow for sitting. I certainly feel like I play better and more comfortably standing.

I believe what works best for me is irrelevant to this thread.

No, the OP asked for opinions, and we want to hear yours too.

......... so I would think helping your students find the right approach early would be an aspirational goal.

Been doing my damn best for many years.