Your amp is probably enough

[Parzival]

It’s just a matter of if you just want “enough” or to get by. Personally, I would rather have the power and not need it than need it and not have it. I’ve played with some very very loud drummers. Each band and every room is different. I would just want to be prepared if able. Each person’s situation is different and I do appreciate that.

 

[Ric Vice]

When it comes to keeping up with a drummer, talk bass is quick to recommend 500+ watts and 2 12 cabs.

I live in a college town with many alt rock and punk bands. In nearly every band here, the bassist is using some sort 100w 12in combo without pa support. Hearing the bass is rarely an issue. These bands are loud and the drummers play hard.

Even in the largest bands, a Rumble 500 can be heard in the mix with 2 AC30s.

A small combo isn't going to get you the best tone and heft in the mix. And it's not going to compete if you're guitarist are painfully loud. But in most situations, you'll be fine, especially with pa support.

I think the members here way overstate the actual power needed for a gig.

If you have a big rig, your going to sound better in a loud band. If you only have a small amp, go uses it, you'll get by

I remember fondly playing lounges with a Ampeg B-15N(C) 25 watts RMS or eventually a Walter Woods MI-100-8 100 watts RMS. There were no monitors, nor were we able to
run the instruments through the P.A. a Peavy column system with 4x10's and about 200 watts RMS. (before that a Shure Vocalmaster (120 watts RMS?) Those rooms probably only
held 75-100 patrons with tables and a bar. Then venues got bigger 200 +. So, P.A.'s got bigger and bass amps got bigger. Whether or not I could go back to playing gigs with a my
Walter Woods MI-100-8 is a mote point now, I wouldn't even attempt it. My rigs are pretty small by today's standards, my largest cabinet is a 500 watt MAS 4x5.5 with a 3Leaf Audio preamp.
The biggest rig I've had in the not to distant pass is a Audio Kinesis TC-112 powered by a 700 watt M700 it got the job done even outdoors with PA support. So small is fine as long as
it isn't to small and sounds good. Fender Rumbles are a great buy, but I'd go for the 500 watt if I wanted to hear myself. Just my take however. Vox AC 30's are lout friggin' guitar
amps so are Fender Super Reverbs.

 

[Michael Milner]

When it comes to keeping up with a drummer, talk bass is quick to recommend 500+ watts and 2 12 cabs.

I live in a college town with many alt rock and punk bands. In nearly every band here, the bassist is using some sort 100w 12in combo without pa support. Hearing the bass is rarely an issue. These bands are loud and the drummers play hard.

Even in the largest bands, a Rumble 500 can be heard in the mix with 2 AC30s.

A small combo isn't going to get you the best tone and heft in the mix. And it's not going to compete if you're guitarist are painfully loud. But in most situations, you'll be fine, especially with pa support.

I think the members here way overstate the actual power needed for a gig.

If you have a big rig, your going to sound better in a loud band. If you only have a small amp, go uses it, you'll get by

Obviously, the type of job will determine the type of amplification required. With that caveat out of the way, the bassist requires a more powerful amp because in order to faithfully reproduce the deeper bass notes, the amp needs more head room. It is just physics. Lots of information on this topic. I note you added PA support...well if the bassist is going through the PA that changes things considerably.

 

[agedhorse]

I am in exactly such a situation at the moment as my new Ampeg PF-T50 just arrived. I was in a rehearsal room today to compare it with some Class D amps and Solid State with a lot of cabs, since I was worried about Ampeg PF-T50 volume.

Some of the impressions (speaking from my point of view and my experience from loud rock bands and big stages) are:

-Ampeg Pf-500 Class D (300W/8Ω) is is twice as loud as tube Ampeg Pf-T50 (tube 50W) - (plugged in the same Ampeg PF-410 HLF 8Ω).
-Ampeg Pf-T50 (tube 50W) + Ampeg PF-410 HLF 8Ω is about as loud (maybe 10% louder) as Gallien Krueger Fusion 112 Combo (400W/1x12'' combo).
-Gallien Krueger Fusion 112 Combo (400W/1x12'' combo) is about 30% louder than Ampeg Pf-T50 (tube 50W) + Orange OBC112 (400W/8Ω).
-Gallien Krueger Fusion 112 Combo + Ampeg PF-410 HLF (800W together) is louder than Gallien Krueger Fusion 112 Combo + Orange OBC112 (800W together).
-Gallien Krueger Fusion 112 Combo + Harely Benton 210 cab is louder then Ampeg Pf-T50 + Orange OBC112 + Harely Benton 210.
-Gallien Krueger Fusion 112 Combo + Ampeg PF-410 HLF (800W together) is as loud as Gallien Krueger RB1001-II Solid State + Ampeg PF-410 HLF.

We tried many more combinations (with some more Class D heads, cabs and combos), but the conclusion IMHO regarding power and volume is as follows:

Tube 50W is about as loud as Class D 250-300W. Both are loud enough for most of the small clubs and venues, but it is very likely that in a loud band with loud guitarists it may not be enough (indoors, without FOH)

Class D 400W in a single combo is very similar to the one previously mentioned.

However, Class D 500W is loud enough for almost anything (Fende Rumble 500, GK MB212-II...indoors, without FOH)

Class D 400W combo + ext cab (800W together) or any Class D 800W head + at least two speakers is louder than You'll ever need (indoors or outdors).
Tube 100W + 1x410 or more, is probably louder than You'll ever need (indoors or outdors).
Solid State 750W + 1x410 or more, is also louder than You'll ever need (indoors or outdors).


I apologize for this long text, but I had to write it because I am currently under impressions

What happens when you turn the class D amps up higher? Do they continue to get louder?

 

[alex1fly]

The point that I was trying to make is that talkbass over exaggerates what you NEED for a gig.


Talkbass tends to artificially raise the barrier of entry for this hobby/profession

100% agree

"You need 500 watts
You need to buy 1 more bass because I have 29 basses and can't stop shopping
You need a P, Jazz, Stingray, active 5 string, fretless... with rounds and flats both. And a short scale! And a 33" scale! And a 35" scale!"

Sorry folks kind of piled on you. Most suggestions towards minimalism or challenging common practices are generally met with a "not my president" kind of attitude.

I blame drummers, lol. They're the ones controlling the volume of the band. If they can quiet down, a lot more becomes possible including using lower wattage amps.

 

[Gearhead17]

The purpose of the original post is not to say that buying better gear is a scam. Better gear for your application is going to sound better.

The point that I was trying to make is that talkbass over exaggerates what you NEED for a gig.

If you don't have the space, money, etc. for better gear, the gear you have is going to do much better than this fourm would lead you to believe.

Talkbass tends to artificially raise the barrier of entry for this hobby/profession

"The point that I was trying to make is that talkbass over exaggerates what you NEED for a gig."

I likely fit this mold. I take some offense to it, but I truly want to help people on here. Nothing is more disheartening than showing up at a gig/practice without enough amplification. You can't practice properly because you can't hear yourself. Your bandmates can't hear you well and some of them may say nothing about it. Good luck rehearsing/learning anything at that practice session.

If you show up to a gig without enough firepower, again, it can turn a fantastic gig into a nightmare. If you can't hear what you are playing, what's the point of showing up? You might start thinking "Why am I even playing if I can't hear a darn note? Can anyone actually hear me? Has the band said anything about my playing? What song is this?"

I routinely tell people to buy something bigger to SAVE MONEY. SO MANY players buy what works for them NOW rather than looking into something that will actually serve them for the long haul. Buy a 50w combo, complain, buy a 100w combo, complain, buy a 500 watt combo (but it's only 250 watts without an extension), complain some more. You can call it exaggeration or you can call it a smart decision. I rather push someone to spend a few hundred more now rather than thousands between now and 3 months down the line.

 

[WRM]

I'm not gigging/in a band currently, but can't fathom a reasonable challenge where the rig in my avatar (R500 w/two X R410s) would not be loud enough, including outdoors. My father's house is 650 yards/0.6 km away on the ridge facing the speakers. The day after I did my "testing" (he was home/inside) , I asked him if he heard anything - "yea, it sounded like someone was having a party". Neither the gain, nor master, ever got past 12.

The R100 in my living room will easily shake the house and be heard outside 250 yards away (tested that, too)....

IF it's not raining.

Cheers,

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Perhaps because you are remembering those experiences with rose colored glasses?

Given your professional bias, your comment is invalid.

 

[agedhorse]

Given your professional bias, your comment is invalid.
View attachment 5028217

I remember the days when I was in school, inadequate by anyone's standards is how I would characterize a lot of amplification... even at the time it was inadequate but in many cases that's all we had available. Would I want to repeat this strategy when it's no longer necessary? No more than I would want to eat ramen noodles because that['s all we could afford and we were hungry.

 

[MtManiac]

I remember the days when I was in school, inadequate by anyone's standards is how I would characterize a lot of amplification... even at the time it was inadequate but in many cases that's all we had available. Would I want to repeat this strategy when it's no longer necessary? No more than I would want to eat ramen noodles because that['s all we could afford and we were hungry.

Relatable, and a perfect analogy.

 

[Hot Rats]

Most people that have been gigging for a few decades know what they need when they get a gig. It's the newbies that need advice and the best advice is get the most you can afford. Which these days is about 500 watts and a 15. These things have volume knobs. I use my Fender TV 10 for some gigs but I'm lucky to work with professionals who care about the end result for the audience. Sometimes I have to use my 212 and 600 watt amp with P.A. support. It's relative. I would not recommend most of the amps/combos I use for first timers though, they probably would not be enough.

 

[chris_b]

When it comes to keeping up with a drummer, talk bass is quick to recommend 500+ watts and 2 12 cabs.

I live in a college town with many alt rock and punk bands. In nearly every band here, the bassist is using some sort 100w 12in combo without pa support. Hearing the bass is rarely an issue. These bands are loud and the drummers play hard.

Even in the largest bands, a Rumble 500 can be heard in the mix with 2 AC30s.

A small combo isn't going to get you the best tone and heft in the mix. And it's not going to compete if you're guitarist are painfully loud. But in most situations, you'll be fine, especially with pa support.

I think the members here way overstate the actual power needed for a gig.

If you have a big rig, your going to sound better in a loud band. If you only have a small amp, go uses it, you'll get by

If I ever get to the point where I think that "getting by" is good enough, take me out and shoot me!

We also seem to have a different idea about the volume of a loud drummer. There is no way I'm keeping up with the guys I play with using the gear you suggest.

I rarely have FOH, and my gear has to fill the room. 500 watts and 2 x 112 cabs is my starting point. I usually have the master volume on 12 o'clock. Headroom and the way it benefits tone is the reason for that.

 

[mrjim123]

A small combo isn't going to get you the best tone and heft in the mix. And it's not going to compete if you're guitarist are painfully loud. But in most situations, you'll be fine, especially with pa support.

If you're happy only playing in "most" situations, and only when the guitarist isn't loud (good luck finding a lot of these), and hoping you'll have PA support, then by all means, save your money and get a small combo. But most players are eventually going to want to trade their pea shooter for some real bang-bang.

 

[agedhorse]

If I ever get to the point where I think that "getting by" is good enough, take me out and shoot me!

We have a saying in engineering that if you strive to design by "getting by" or "barely adequate", you are probably in the wrong profession.

 

[TBird1958]

Closed for a bit cleaning, jeez.

 

[kesslari]

Let's keep it respectful. Thread cleaned up.

 

[Groove Doctor]

You CAN tow a caravan with 1.8L 4-cylinder hatchback, just. Doesn’t mean you should.

 

[Gloompunk]

i play death/groove metal with a loud guitarist and a drummer that's beating the living daylights out of his kit, and my rumble 200 is enough to keep up (hell, turn the master past noon and i'm louder than the guitars lmao)

 

[Wambemando]

This thread is a good read.
Lots of great info and opinions.

 

[brisonic]

With all due respect...

I'm not buying that.

Yep, if the guitarists are playing tube amps that is not enough. I had an swr 300 with their Triad. I loved the hifi sounding tone. I still have that cab, but in a tryout with 2 tube wielding 6 string players, my amp was clipping and I could not be heard. Were they too loud? Perhaps, but that is what happened. My short term answer was getting a qsc power amp and an avatar 2x12.