Your amp is probably enough

[Jared Houseman]

The purpose of the original post is not to say that buying better gear is a scam. Better gear for your application is going to sound better.

The point that I was trying to make is that talkbass over exaggerates what you NEED for a gig.

If you don't have the space, money, etc. for better gear, the gear you have is going to do much better than this fourm would lead you to believe.

Talkbass tends to artificially raise the barrier of entry for this hobby/profession

 

[Andy Marshman]

When it comes to keeping up with a drummer, talk bass is quick to recommend 500+ watts and 2 12 cabs.

I live in a college town with many alt rock and punk bands. In nearly every band here, the bassist is using some sort 100w 12in combo without pa support. Hearing the bass is rarely an issue. These bands are loud and the drummers play hard.

Even in the largest bands, a Rumble 500 can be heard in the mix with 2 AC30s.

A small combo isn't going to get you the best tone and heft in the mix. And it's not going to compete if you're guitarist are painfully loud. But in most situations, you'll be fine, especially with pa support.

I think the members here way overstate the actual power needed for a gig.

If you have a big rig, your going to sound better in a loud band. If you only have a small amp, go uses it, you'll get by

and I thought I was the only person who felt like you do. I've heard and understand the arguments for more power (headroom benefit). I never needed that much either (and I had some large rigs in the past). The YMMV is a spot-on comment for all of this.

 

[Plectrum72]

Enough amp is determined more by speaker area and cabinet efficiency than by wattage. I can make 5W work for a bar gig with no PA support if it's going through a decent 810. Conversely, 500W through an average 210 will not work for most outdoor gigs without PA support.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

If you don't have the space, money, etc. for better gear, the gear you have is going to do much better than this fourm would lead you to believe.

Talkbass tends to artificially raise the barrier of entry for this hobby/profession

I'd suggest you don't spend your time on internet forums and social media if you don't want to feel inadequate about what you don't have and can't afford. Talkbass is a very small, international, sub-set of bass players. Just get out and play and don't worry about what the internet thinks. You'll figure things out for yourself soon enough.

 

[Wasnex]

I think the members here way overstate the actual power needed for a gig.

Power is not what we should all be focusing on. Find a rig that sounds good and gets loud enough for most of the work you do.

IMHO it's generally best to have more headroom than need. You can always turn down if you are too loud. But if the rig is not loud enough, you are stuck.

It's somewhat of a different matter if you like pushing a tube output section into the magical realm of tubey goodness. Then the headroom needs to fall within a range that reasonably meets both your volume requirements and the desired tone quality. If your rig has too much headroom, you won't be able to push it hard enough to reach your tone goals without being too loud.

I can usually get the job done with a rig that is rated for 118dB calculated. But there is a difference between getting the job done, and getting the job done well. With only 118dB of potential headroom, I often find it difficult to hear well, and I have to change my technique to avoid unintentionally clipping the amp. 118dB is plenty loud for jazz trio. But in my experience, it often feels extremely inadequate in a cover band.

A rig capable of 124dB is about the minimum I want. I find that 124dB is loud enough for most gigs and, to be honest, I don't want to play very much louder.

My last touring rig was capable of almost 127dB calculated. It had a very efficient cab, but only 250W. I have done gigs where this rig was not loud enough to hear well, but at some point I chose to smile and act like it sounded perfect rather than making it even louder. I don't ever remember pushing that rig to clipping.

How much power is required for 124dB. That depends on usable power and the efficiency of you cab. Usable power is the minimum between how much power the amp can make and how much power your speaker(s) can handle. If the usable power is not high enough, you can't reach the goal.

Start with the speaker's 1W/1m sensitivity rating.

Let's figure out the necessary power with these sensitivity ratings:
Cab A = 94dB 1W/1m
Cab B = 97dB 1W/1m
Cab C = 103dB 1W/1m

If the target is 124db, we need to figure out the decibel change from the 1W sensitivity rating to our goal.
A = 124 - 94 = 30dB change
B = 124 - 97 = 27dB change
C = 124 - 103 = 21dB change

Next we figure how much the power must be increased over 1W to produce the required decibel change.

Before we do the calculations, let's consider this. Since we know that you get a 3dB change each time you double the power, we can conclude that cab B requires half as much power as cab A to reach 124dB. Also, cab C requires 1/4 as much power as cab B, and 1/8th as much power as cab C.

The formula we will use to figure out the required power is

[Log(X) x 10] = (decibel change)​

We need to solve for X, so rearranging the formula from common log form to exponential form, we get

X = 10^(decibel change/10)​

Required power A

X = 10^(30/10)
X = 10^3 = 1,000W​

Required power B

X = 10^(27/10)
X = 10^2.7 = 501W​

Required power C

X = 10^(21/10)
X = 10^2.1 = 126W​

Hopefully you see that the amount of power required to meet our 124dB target varies drastically based on the sensitivity rating of the cab. If you have cab C (rated 103dB 1W/1m) you need a 126W to produce 124dB calculated. You get about 123dB with 100W...maybe it's close enough.

However if you have cab A (rated 94dB 1W/1m), the usable power must be 1,000W to produce 124dB calculated. With 100W you only get about 114dB. IMHO, totally inadequate, but YMMV.

My personal feeling is the sweet spot in the solid state amp market is between 500W and 800W. Sure you can get the job done with less power if you buy the right cab. But these days power is cheap and an 800W class D amp will still be relatively small and light. Buying a more powerful amp ensures a wider range of cabs will meet your minimum volume requirements. Just make sure your cab can handle the power.

 

[J-Mags]

The purpose of the original post is not to say that buying better gear is a scam. Better gear for your application is going to sound better.

The point that I was trying to make is that talkbass over exaggerates what you NEED for a gig.

If you don't have the space, money, etc. for better gear, the gear you have is going to do much better than this fourm would lead you to believe.

Talkbass tends to artificially raise the barrier of entry for this hobby/profession

Back in the day (1980s), most of the bass players I knew had heavy-azz 1x15, 100-Watt combos, and everyone could be heard. Sure, guitar amps were also subject to budgetary limitations, but I had a Twin Reverb, the drummer was loud, and I could hear the bass through the bass player's Peavey KB-130 keyboard amp just fine. 15 years later, bass player was a pro multi-instrumentalist/sideman with gigs that you'd envy and KB-130 was out on tour with him as a keyboard amp.

It certainly wasn't universal, and some of US got bigger amps over time, but when I saw L7 for the first time in a club, the bass player was definitely playing a TNT 100 (40 watts, despite its name), and there's no doubt in my mind I'd have heard her just fine with or without a DI. If you know, you know. The TNT 100s also sounded OK - as long as your other band members were playing. When the band dropped out, ouch.

It's true that you can project more authority with more gear, and put less wear and tear on it, but no one should be thinking of it as a barrier to entry. The size of the venue that you're playing doesn't make the drummer any louder or quieter. You're gonna want better and louder gear eventually, and by all means get it, but you don't need it, especially to get started.

Did the lesser gear meet pro standards, even at the time? Nope. Did the players sound like pros? If they played like pros, they usually sounded pretty good.

 

[RoadieP]

Talkbass tends to artificially raise the barrier of entry for this hobby/profession

Not the dreaded gatekeepers... anything but them

 

[bassfran]

BLASPHEMER!!!

 

[Aussie Player]

There is enough commentary on here, myself included as willfully guilty, that PA support does in fact offer and provide PA abuse. In fact because the operators, most of which couldn't mix a fruitcake, demonstrate indifference, ignorance, unwillingness and an uncaring attitude to "your" sound, the one you paid money for, the one you searched for, the one you spend years developing, nurturing and nuancing for, is stolen from you, butchered, misrepresented and absorbed under the guise, that it is only bass anyway and we can still hear it.

That PA support?

We must remember that a dislike is usually grown over time, matured and influenced by many contributors, hence the fringe discussions over DI or Mic, tube or SS, Mic and DI or what if my vintage bass amp doesn't have the yet to be invented and implemented DI output?

Seriously, this is a big discussion and my attitude was originally created by John Entwistle who had the same experiences with PA as I did back then and although PA equipment has grown tremendously, the fruit cake mixer on the console hasn't to the same degree.

I am a bass player, and I matter.

 

[aprod]

Ever heard of headroom? A 100 watt amp would never work in my situation.

 

[agedhorse]

The purpose of the original post is not to say that buying better gear is a scam. Better gear for your application is going to sound better.

The point that I was trying to make is that talkbass over exaggerates what you NEED for a gig.

If you don't have the space, money, etc. for better gear, the gear you have is going to do much better than this fourm would lead you to believe.

Talkbass tends to artificially raise the barrier of entry for this hobby/profession

Depends very much on the gear, the type of gig and the desire/need of the player.

Exaggeration depends on your perspective, I know a fair number of players that gig situations where a 100 watt combo would not work for them at all and they NEED more rig. That doesn't make them "exaggerators", or "wrong" anymore that your situations with 100 watts makes you "right".

 

[agedhorse]

There is enough commentary on here, myself included as willfully guilty, that PA support does in fact offer and provide PA abuse. In fact because the operators, most of which couldn't mix a fruitcake, demonstrate indifference, ignorance, unwillingness and an uncaring attitude to "your" sound, the one you paid money for, the one you searched for, the one you spend years developing, nurturing and nuancing for, is stolen from you, butchered, misrepresented and absorbed under the guise, that it is only bass anyway and we can still hear it.

That PA support?

We must remember that a dislike is usually grown over time, matured and influenced by many contributors, hence the fringe discussions over DI or Mic, tube or SS, Mic and DI or what if my vintage bass amp doesn't have the yet to be invented and implemented DI output?

Seriously, this is a big discussion and my attitude was originally created by John Entwistle who had the same experiences with PA as I did back then and although PA equipment has grown tremendously, the fruit cake mixer on the console hasn't to the same degree.

I am a bass player, and I matter.

You need to play better gigs where PA is not a limiting factor in "your tone" on stage, though "your tone" on stage may not fit into the mix as well as a tone that's been massaged to fit into the mix in the audience and not on stage. Two different environments, something that pros quickly learn to work around.

 

[LiptonJigglers]

Yeah PA support is a wonderful thing. Until you don't have it.
When you don't have it, 100 watt single 12 is nothing but a foot rest.

 

[sawzalot]

My amp is either completely unnecessary (when I play venues with a big enough PA and I go on IEM's) or very important (when I don't), in which case I want a lot of power behind me both so I can hear myself and so I can fill the room.

When I play at a venue with a PA, I've been lucky enough to have FOH engineers with good ears, plus I also hand them a feed out of my pedalboard with a carefully tailored sound so they can't mess it up too badly. When I play using an amp, I just want it to sound good, fill the room, and have more than enough power on tap. For me 100 watts with a single 12 would never be heard over the drummer, but that's just me. As with everything, it all depends.

 

[jd56hawk]

A small combo isn't going to get you the best tone and heft in the mix. And it's not going to compete if you're guitarist are painfully loud.

I might be going out on a limb here, but I think most bassists want the best tone they can get.
Other than that, what about being heard playing with two loud guitars and a loud drummer?

 

[SLO Surfer]

A small combo isn't going to get you the best tone and heft in the mix. And it's not going to compete if you're guitarist are painfully loud.

If you have a big rig, you’re going to sound better in a loud band.

+1

 

[juancaminos]

In my high school days of playing house parties my Kustom 100 with 212 CTS speakers was plenty. But once I grew into the bar band scene it was not. I ended up going to an Acoustic 370/408 which was more than enough for a loud band playing Hendrix, Cream, VH, etc.

From there I went to an Eden set up of WT400 powering a 410xlt. That was 1999 until just recently. The Eden set up worked for every situation I threw at it, in door or out door. Since the 410 cabinet was an 8 ohm cab I was only utilizing ~1/2 the power capability and it was fine. On a few occasions I cobbled together a 610 set up at 4 ohms and it was absolute magic!

 

[Aussie Player]

It may also be that 100 watts isn’t enough and 500 watts is more than adequate. There’s a whole range in between, and it all depends on the speakers and how loud you need to be in order to be heard.

I have been playing more than 50 years.
While reading this I am playing a Jazz Bass plugged into a 100W Marshall JCM800 1981 amp into an old Hartke Systems 2x10 120W cab.

It is not enough for any live gig I have ever done but sounds nice in the house rehearsing by myself.
BUT: If I play that same head into a 400W sealed Marshall VBC 4x12 cab, that's a whole "nother" sound and adequate for a 100watt amp.

I added onto Agedhorse because he too, recognizes the importance of speaker cabinets to the contribution to the bass reproduction.

 

[u84six]

Through my 30+ years of playing in bands, having "just enough to get by" is not the recommendation I would make. I've found that having a good amount of headroom is the way to go considering that you'll be playing different types/sizes of venues, different styles of music, different band members, etc. You don't need stacks of cabs and heavy tube amps to have a lot of headroom anymore. Between modern cab technology and class D amps, you can build a very lightweight rig that doesn't take up a lot of space that will give you a good range of volume and tone. Given the venues and style of music that I play, I would never be able to get by with 100w/1x12 rig. That's like something I'd bring to a small room for rehearsal or maybe a coffee shop. However, my rig is so small and lightweight, I can use it in any situation given that it has enough juice to cover pretty much every scenario. And that's what you want. A rig that can work in most situations, whether it be small venue, medium-to-large, and outdoors. This generally means that it's best to have a good amount of headroom (i.e. have "more than enough" rather than the minimum). And also keep in mind that depending on the venue, your rig is merely a stage monitor.

 

[jdjk7]

When it comes to keeping up with a drummer, talk bass is quick to recommend 500+ watts and 2 12 cabs.

I live in a college town with many alt rock and punk bands. In nearly every band here, the bassist is using some sort 100w 12in combo without pa support. Hearing the bass is rarely an issue. These bands are loud and the drummers play hard.

Even in the largest bands, a Rumble 500 can be heard in the mix with 2 AC30s.

A small combo isn't going to get you the best tone and heft in the mix. And it's not going to compete if you're guitarist are painfully loud. But in most situations, you'll be fine, especially with pa support.

I think the members here way overstate the actual power needed for a gig.

If you have a big rig, your going to sound better in a loud band. If you only have a small amp, go uses it, you'll get by

Yeah... and my 100w 1x12 combo amp could barely compete with the guitar at a reasonable volume, let alone a full band. There's a lot of factors about the amp, the venue/space, and the desired tone that aren't just boiling down to these simply and easy numbers.

I'd venture to guess that those punk and alt rock guys don't mind it if they push their amps harder than most... but if it's not going to work tonally for your amp or speaker to distort, then it's not going to work. No real way around that. I also wonder how many of those punk and alt rock guys are playing in basement venues and other poor, boomy acoustic spaces that do better with less bass to begin with.